Episode 53

Alexandria Cemetery - Julius Campbell, Wilmer McLean, George Washington Pallbearer and more

☕️ Say thanks with a cup of coffee 😁

The Alexandria National Cemetery holds the graves of many notable figures, including Samuel Cooper, James Mason, Julius Campbell, Dennis Ramsey, Robert Allison Jr., and Wilmer McLean. Each of these individuals have had an impact on history, whether through their service in the military, their political work, or other contributions. The cemetery also holds the grave of Joseph McCoy, who was a veteran of the American Revolutionary War and the War of 1812.

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🎥 Alexandria Cemetery video

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Transcript
Scott:

Now just across the, the street right there from Douglas Cemetery was

Scott:

probably your favorite, I would say.

Scott:

Your

Jenn:

favorite grave that we visited.

Jenn:

. My favorite grave.

Jenn:

I know it's kind of a weird thing to say.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

When you do this enough, you, you gotta, but when I saw who it was,

Scott:

Welcome to Talk with History.

Scott:

I'm your host Scott here with my wife and historian Jen.

Scott:

Hello.

Scott:

On this podcast, we give you insights to our history and.

Scott:

Fired World Travel's YouTube channel journey, and examine history

Scott:

through deeper conversations with the curious the explorers and

Scott:

the history levers out there.

Scott:

Now, Jen, before we jump into the podcast tonight, I'm not

Scott:

gonna ask for any reviews.

Scott:

I actually wanna give a couple shoutouts.

Scott:

Oh, cool.

Scott:

So I don't think we ever gave shoutouts.

Scott:

We had two.

Scott:

People in our community actually visit the Walk with History gift shop and either

Scott:

leave a donation and make a purchase.

Scott:

This is a little while ago.

Scott:

That's cool.

Scott:

So I wanted to give a little shout out to Eric and Jeanie who either got a

Scott:

hat or left a donation on the channel.

Scott:

And the fun thing we, we just kind of updated and modern modernized

Scott:

the Walk with History Gift Shop.

Scott:

So the merchandise you'll see when you see Jen wearing the history.

Scott:

Nerd hats.

Scott:

That is something that we're doing now.

Scott:

You can find those, you can find that with the walking person

Scott:

without the walking person on there.

Scott:

So a little bit more generic, some t-shirts and other things like that.

Scott:

We have more designs coming.

Scott:

I'm gonna try to bring some back, some talk with history stuff, but I just

Scott:

wanna give a little shout out and if you make a purchase on there, or if

Scott:

you decide to visit there and you, and something strikes your fancy and

Scott:

you get it, I'll actually give you a shout out on the, on a Future podcast.

Scott:

So thanks to Eric and Jeanie for showing some support.

Scott:

And we really.

Scott:

Truly appreciate it and if you're interested in visiting the Walk With

Scott:

History Gift Shop, you can go to walk with history gift shop.com and look

Scott:

at the history nerd stuff, or the Walk with History merchandise that we have.

Scott:

That's walk with history gift shop.com.

Scott:

Jen, I don't really have any sort of preamble.

Scott:

We're talking about the video.

Scott:

Sure.

Scott:

So we just visited Alexandria.

Scott:

We spent a whole weekend up in Washington dc We've got a lot of great content

Scott:

coming out for you guys and we hung out there for the, for a good three days.

Scott:

Mm-hmm.

Scott:

and we crammed a ton of filming in, but the first place we stopped was

Jenn:

Alexandria Cemeteries.

Jenn:

Yes.

Jenn:

So I had visited there when we filmed the Female Stranger.

Jenn:

And I.

Jenn:

Was just so amazed that this cemetery was kind of tucked

Jenn:

into the center of Alexandria.

Jenn:

In the middle of everything was the cemetery, and I found it.

Jenn:

So again, striking that.

Jenn:

These cemeteries were very segmented.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

By

Scott:

religion.

Scott:

That was interesting.

Scott:

That's, that's not anything I've really seen

Jenn:

anywhere else.

Jenn:

No.

Jenn:

So let you know how old school it is.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

Because here we are in Alexandria.

Jenn:

This, the cemetery started in 1803.

Jenn:

Mm-hmm.

Jenn:

. So right after the birth, our nation and people are very,

Jenn:

Segmented by their religion.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

Especially back then and, and even if it's Protestant, it's all these

Jenn:

different Protestant religions.

Jenn:

It's Episcopalian Methodist.

Jenn:

And then there was a national cemetery, so , and one of the

Scott:

things we throw out that's kind of fun in the beginning of the

Scott:

video, that I, I, I didn't know.

Scott:

We, we both didn't know until we got there and we were just

Scott:

kind of reading the signs.

Scott:

And a lot of people commented on the video that Alexandria National

Scott:

Cemetery, which we visited at the end of the video, was actually

Scott:

kind of the precursor to Arlington.

Scott:

Yes.

Jenn:

So that was pretty cool.

Jenn:

That's pretty cool to learn.

Jenn:

So there really wasn't as big of a need for a national.

Jenn:

Cemetery.

Jenn:

Not at the time, at the time you had the Revolutionary War, but the people

Jenn:

who were killed in the Revolutionary War were killed more on the outskirts

Jenn:

and the different skirmishes that happened outside of the city's areas.

Jenn:

And so when the civil War starts to happen and people are killed

Jenn:

in the cities, mostly, not from just combat, but from illness.

Jenn:

They ran outta places to bury them, and so they had to find national land

Jenn:

because the, the country was burying them.

Jenn:

The country was, was burying the cost of, of the funerals, and so

Jenn:

Alexandria was quickly filled.

Jenn:

And that's when Meag started to look around.

Jenn:

He was in charge of finding national burial grounds and he

Jenn:

was very upset with Robert E.

Jenn:

Lee cuz they were friends and he knew he had a great location and a great home.

Jenn:

Right there in DC and he needed land in DC so that's was the precursor of Arlington.

Jenn:

He started burying people at

Scott:

Arlington.

Scott:

Yeah, I just, I thought that was so neat and it was kind of fun to introduce

Scott:

that in the beginning of the video.

Scott:

Mm-hmm.

Scott:

, and we'll loop back around to it when we talk about Alexandria

Scott:

National Cemetery at the end.

Scott:

That's right.

Scott:

, but one of the first mm-hmm.

Scott:

Graves that we visited, I thought was actually kind of one of the most

Scott:

entertaining stories, because it wasn't some gruesome demise mm-hmm.

Scott:

but it was this character who kept trying to escape the, the actions of

Scott:

the Civil War and just couldn't seem to, so who did we visit the at first.

Jenn:

So we went to Wilmer McLean, and Wilmer McLean

Jenn:

has the distinction of being.

Jenn:

In the same place, the same location of the first battle, serious Battle

Jenn:

of the Civil War at the first Battle Bull run, and then the very last

Jenn:

battle, and it was at his home that the surrender takes place.

Jenn:

So he was a grocer.

Jenn:

In Manasas and the battle takes place and destroys his, his home and his business.

Jenn:

They actually have the cornerstone of his home at the visitor center at Bull Run.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

Battle of Bull Run.

Jenn:

And he just wanted to get away.

Jenn:

He's like, I'm gonna move three hours away in the middle of nowhere and, and doesn't

Scott:

follow me.

Scott:

And, and we show it on the map in the video.

Scott:

This is a three.

Scott:

By a car.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

So this is a couple days, right?

Scott:

Maybe.

Scott:

Sure.

Scott:

With all your stuff.

Scott:

With all your stuff.

Scott:

Mm-hmm.

Scott:

, maybe two weeks.

Scott:

I mean if you, he's got a lot of stuff right.

Scott:

This is a horse and buggy still back

Jenn:

then.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

And if, I mean, you can imagine if he was a grocer and his.

Jenn:

Business was destroyed.

Jenn:

He's gonna have to set up a new business somewhere else.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

And so then the, the battle comes there four years later and he has a nice enough

Jenn:

home because if you, if you remember like generals and officers are commandeering

Jenn:

homes everywhere they go for.

Jenn:

The Civil War to set up a headquarters or a makeshift, residence.

Jenn:

So they commandeer his home down the surrender , poor, poor,

Jenn:

poor, poor, Wil, Wilmer, McLean.

Jenn:

Poor guy.

Jenn:

So, and, and it's funny because like, and he's, he's buried

Scott:

in Alexandria, he's well known enough that like, it

Scott:

actually wasn't too hard for me.

Scott:

I know when someone's a little bit more well known because I

Scott:

do the research after the fact.

Scott:

Mm-hmm.

Scott:

and look for pictures or, or articles or things like that.

Scott:

Yes.

Scott:

And they actually call.

Scott:

His house out, right?

Scott:

The McClean house.

Scott:

Mm-hmm.

Scott:

at Appomattox.

Scott:

Yes.

Scott:

So, so it's actually, they, they recognize that and they, they kind

Scott:

of say, Hey, yeah, he used to live in Manassas for when bull run happened.

Scott:

Moved to get away from the war, and then the war finished

Jenn:

on his doorstep.

Jenn:

And he is not far from the female stranger.

Jenn:

So I kind of point that out from the, our last video about the ado burr.

Jenn:

But He's buried beside his wife and his daughter, and it looks

Jenn:

like, it looks like a family plot.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

That's probably why he's in Alexandria.

Jenn:

Yeah, it was pretty

Scott:

neat.

Scott:

And then after that we went over to, I think it was the Presbyterian cemetery.

Scott:

The two graves were that were in there were Robert Allison Jr.

Scott:

And Dennis Ramsey.

Jenn:

Yes.

Jenn:

So, so who were they?

Jenn:

First of all, you need a code to get into that cemetery.

Jenn:

There's a low wall.

Jenn:

And you can get in that way,

Jenn:

. Scott: Although, although to, to be

Jenn:

it's open, Monday through Saturday.

Jenn:

So if, if it's open, it's not like you're allowed to go in there actually you're

Jenn:

allow, go in there and people were jogging there, saw joggers

Jenn:

and walking walker, walkers.

Jenn:

So a lot of people had that coat and most, most

Scott:

of the locals must have that coat.

Scott:

Cause we saw 'em walking right in and we were like, ah.

Scott:

And we kept trying to catch 'em, but yes, we, you had already kind

Jenn:

of worked your way around.

Jenn:

So Robert Allison Jr.

Jenn:

Has the distinction, if you remember in the war of 1812, when DC is

Jenn:

overcome by the British, right?

Jenn:

It's, it's burned.

Jenn:

There is fight back.

Jenn:

There is a battle that ensues.

Jenn:

Now granted, DC is not in the hands of the British for long.

Jenn:

It's 26 hours.

Jenn:

There's a storm that rolls in, they call it the storm

Jenn:

that's saved DC kind of, sets.

Jenn:

It's kind.

Jenn:

Puts out all those fires and, and the British leave and they lose their

Jenn:

general rust pretty quickly after that.

Jenn:

So they kind of are disheartened anyway.

Jenn:

But one of the young men that's killed is at a landing in Alexandria area and it's

Jenn:

called the Battle of the White House.

Jenn:

And then that landing, they, they fire on the ships that are leaving DC and

Jenn:

they actually make those ships founder.

Jenn:

They, they hit the shoals and founder and, but one of them is killed

Jenn:

and his name is Robert Allison Jr.

Jenn:

And he dies on September 5th, 1814.

Jenn:

So young man gave his life and services country, it's a very ornate marker that

Jenn:

it's almost like a a historic marker.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

It gives his whole story.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

And

Scott:

it, and it's not a super well known, like, I wouldn't

Scott:

even call it a naval battle, but, but piece of, of that Yeah.

Scott:

It's, it's well known enough for the history nerds over here.

Jenn:

Yes.

Jenn:

I was kind of like, everyone knows the burning of dc Everyone knows

Jenn:

the saving of the Gilbert Stewart painting of George Washington.

Jenn:

It's another aspect of that.

Jenn:

So it's events, it's, it's that event.

Jenn:

It's that story.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

And then not

Scott:

too far from him, in fact, like almost right next to him.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

Dennis

Jenn:

Ramsey.

Jenn:

Dennis Ramsey.

Jenn:

So Dennis Ramsey is Washington's p bearer.

Jenn:

What I kind of had to look some stuff up to kind of understand his significance.

Jenn:

He was the mayor of Alexander Alexandria at 1.0 and he delivered an address

Jenn:

to George Washington, but he also fought in the Revolutionary War.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

So

Scott:

he, he knew, it sounds like he knew George Washington was probably relatively

Scott:

close to him if he was a Paul Bear at his

Jenn:

funeral.

Jenn:

Yes.

Jenn:

And George Washington had attended.

Jenn:

His mother's funeral because it was a distant relative to

Jenn:

George Washington's mother.

Jenn:

Oh, okay.

Jenn:

So they are kind of related at the same time.

Jenn:

So that's why he's George Washington's p bearer it's more than just he fought

Jenn:

in the Revolutionary War with him.

Jenn:

He was the mayor of Alexandria.

Jenn:

He gave some speeches with George Washington present cuz George

Jenn:

Washington was very present in Alexandria, their mother.

Jenn:

We're ly.

Scott:

Okay.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

And that, that makes more sense, especially back then, a, a lot of the

Scott:

people then it's, it's not like the Americas were drastically populated.

Scott:

Sure.

Scott:

A lot of people were distantly related.

Jenn:

Exactly.

Jenn:

And so, I mean, And so I think it's just, it's all of that

Jenn:

kind of like, respect Yeah.

Jenn:

And family connection.

Jenn:

And, and so that's why he's a Paul bearer.

Jenn:

There's a whole there's a lot of research into the George Washington,

Jenn:

Paul Bearers, if you're interested, where they stood Oh, really?

Jenn:

Along the coffin.

Jenn:

So he's not has he doesn't have like a prime location , we would call it that.

Jenn:

Oh, I didn't know that.

Jenn:

But he, he is one of the p

Scott:

bearers, I guess, for large historic figures, like the first

Scott:

president of the United States.

Scott:

Mm-hmm.

Scott:

people are gonna study whatever they can.

Scott:

Exactly.

Scott:

That's interesting.

Scott:

I would, I had, I kind of, I had wondered.

Scott:

Pick that.

Scott:

Cause I was like, what's the big deal with, like, I say, yeah, that's

Scott:

cool, but like, what's a big deal?

Scott:

But I, again, it's first president for the first president of the United States.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

Anybody that's involved in any sort of event

Jenn:

surrounding him.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

It's gonna be an inaugural, right?

Jenn:

He,

Scott:

he's got a place in history.

Scott:

He was there, at, at the funeral.

Scott:

He was, he

Jenn:

was carrying, carrying that stuff.

Jenn:

And this was kind of, this video was released close to Washington's birthday.

Jenn:

February 22nd.

Jenn:

Yep.

Jenn:

So it was kind of a, a highlight to kind of pinpoint him as well.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

So then after that we kind of move a little bit further, further down.

Jenn:

Well, we, after that we talk a little bit about the segregation

Jenn:

of the cemeteries, right?

Jenn:

So we talk about the Fredericks Douglas Cemetery, and if you see it, you'll go

Jenn:

down Wilke Street and you'll see like a cemetery with lots of tombstones.

Jenn:

And then you'll see to the right.

Jenn:

A more barren cemetery.

Jenn:

This is like the the African American cemetery, and if the cemetery was

Jenn:

established in 1895, but people were being buried in it probably 50 years

Jenn:

before that, and it's not in use anymore.

Jenn:

It's not in use anymore.

Jenn:

There's close to.

Jenn:

2000 people buried there.

Jenn:

Really, even though you only see about 700 markers, and honestly, as

Jenn:

a historian, that is very common.

Jenn:

Oh, wow.

Jenn:

For African-American cemeteries in America because most of those people were

Jenn:

enslaved or had just bought theirselves.

Jenn:

Their freedom did not have the money for stone monuments.

Jenn:

Whites would've had.

Jenn:

And so even though they're buried on the, over there, they're using a lot of wood.

Jenn:

They're using a lot of different things that did not last the test.

Jenn:

That's

Scott:

interesting.

Scott:

I, I actually, I, so obviously I didn't know that.

Scott:

If you just saw my reaction, I didn't know that when we were there, that would've

Scott:

been interesting to try and frame right within the context of, of a video to show,

Scott:

like if they had buried them like any other one with a headstone and kind of

Scott:

the spacing and all that stuff, there's no way they would've fit 2000 maybe.

Scott:

200.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

And they have done grave mapping of that cemetery, which is done often

Jenn:

when there's not a lot of tombstones to mark where people's bodies are.

Jenn:

And it's in that mapping, that 2000 bodies, and they're not.

Jenn:

Orderly.

Jenn:

Oh, sure.

Jenn:

And symmetrical.

Jenn:

And I didn't know that.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

So, and that's also very typical if you're gonna study enslaved cemeteries

Jenn:

or a free African American cemeteries, you're gonna find that kind of burial

Jenn:

practice because of the lack of space and of the lack of resources.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

Now just across the, the street right there from Douglas Cemetery was

Scott:

probably your favorite, I would say.

Scott:

Your

Jenn:

favorite grave that we visited.

Jenn:

. My favorite grave.

Jenn:

I know it's kind of a weird thing to say.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

When you do this enough, you, you gotta, but when I saw who it was, I was.

Jenn:

Excited, and I was excited because it's, it's a central character,

Jenn:

my favorite football movie.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

Remember The Titans?

Jenn:

And we went to Julius Campbell's grave.

Jenn:

Now we went to

Scott:

Julius Campbell's grave.

Scott:

So if, if you've seen, remember The Titans, right?

Scott:

Primary, well, I wouldn't say the pri, the primary character

Scott:

is Denzel Washington Rights.

Scott:

Sorry.

Scott:

He's the coach, coach Boo.

Scott:

He's, he's the highest, he's.

Scott:

Coach Boone, right?

Scott:

This, these two high schools that become integrated relatively late, like you point

Jenn:

out in the seventies.

Jenn:

Yeah, it's 1971.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

And so you have Brown versus the Board of Education in 1954 and you're

Jenn:

getting civil rights in the sixties.

Jenn:

We just talked about Loving Versus Virginia, that's 1967.

Jenn:

And the high school was in Alexandria.

Jenn:

It's in Alexandria.

Jenn:

And that's 1971.

Jenn:

So

Scott:

I wanna show you guys a quick clip from that movie, and it's

Scott:

one of the, one of the clips that.

Scott:

Jen and I talked about.

Scott:

Yeah, and there's, there's a later one.

Scott:

I won't show that one here on the, on the stream, but I wanna show that, I

Scott:

wanna show that clip real quickly here.

Scott:

So you kind of know what we're talking about.

Scott:

If you've seen, so this, this is the scene with Julius Campbell and his,

Jenn:

and, and, yeah.

Jenn:

Beier.

Scott:

Beier, his kind of, it's basically his white

Jenn:

counterpart.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

So they're both the captains of their respective.

Jenn:

Teams from the schools that integrated.

Jenn:

And so you have the best athletic ability of both.

Jenn:

And so everyone's looking at them for leadership.

Jenn:

And this is the moment, I love this moment cuz this is the moment where

Jenn:

you see them kind of compliment each other and then also call each other out.

Scott:

Call each other out.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

This is, this is a, this is a great spot.

Scott:

Honesty.

Scott:

You want honesty?

Remember the Titans:

Alright.

Remember the Titans:

Honestly,

Remember the Titans:

I think you're nothing.

Remember the Titans:

Nothing but a pure waste of God given talent.

Remember the Titans:

You don't listen to nobody, man.

Remember the Titans:

Not even Docker, Boone

Remember the Titans:

Shiver.

Remember the Titans:

Push on the line every time, man.

Remember the Titans:

You blow right past them.

Remember the Titans:

I'm

Remember the Titans:

supposed to wear myself out for the team.

Remember the Titans:

What team?

Remember the Titans:

No, no.

Remember the Titans:

What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna look out for myself and I'm gonna get mine.

Remember the Titans:

See, man, that's the worst

Remember the Titans:

attitude I ever.

Remember the Titans:

Attitude reflect leadership,

Jenn:

and I just love that scene because they're both thinking

Jenn:

they're the righteous ones.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

And then they both come to realize that it's bigger.

Jenn:

It's bigger than just football.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

And I actually cut that scene

Scott:

short, mostly just for the video because Julius Campbell kind of calls out.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

Beier right there.

Scott:

He is like, Hey, you're not telling your, your fellow white

Scott:

players to do their piece as well.

Scott:

Don't tell me that I have to, that I have to do my part.

Scott:

Mm-hmm.

Scott:

, when you're not telling that to your own.

Scott:

To your own, yeah.

Scott:

To your, your fellow white players.

Scott:

Mm-hmm.

Scott:

and then that, you see it kind of set in on ber tier and so,

Scott:

It was really neat because hearing you talk about it as I was making the video.

Scott:

Yes.

Scott:

Julius Campbell was actually, like you said in the video, he

Scott:

was known for just kind of being a

Jenn:

good guy.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

And that's kind of like, he kind of had this dual personality that he was just

Jenn:

very rough and tough on the football field and then off the football field,

Jenn:

he was very quiet, soft-spoken guy.

Jenn:

But what, what happened between Campbell and Bertie is it became like best friends.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

And they did lead this football team to a.

Jenn:

Championship.

Jenn:

So if you think about Virginia and football in 1971 and an

Jenn:

integrated school, Going all the way to win the state championship.

Jenn:

What happened in that is not only did the school come together because you're

Jenn:

winning and you're champions, the city came together and, and essentially

Jenn:

the state starts to come together.

Jenn:

So, What they did through sports and athleticism is just, it's, it's amazing.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

And

Scott:

so I, I said I wasn't gonna show up, but now that we're

Scott:

talking, talking about it, I'm like, I'm so excited about it.

Scott:

So I'm gonna show the, the next scene where they really click.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

On the field.

Jenn:

It's the moment.

Jenn:

It's the moment where everyone sees it.

Jenn:

This, this is,

Scott:

this is, this is the moment right here.

Scott:

You really stuck in Campbell.

Remember the Titans:

Yeah.

Remember the Titans:

I love me.

Remember the Titans:

A little contact beatie.

Remember the Titans:

This is left side.

Remember the Titans:

So

Jenn:

that's congratulatory cheer, right?

Jenn:

That they're doing together?

Jenn:

Yeah, that they're tough together.

Jenn:

Left side, like they need both sides, right?

Jenn:

To be strong.

Jenn:

And so left side and the strong side, it's this, it's a celebratory cheer.

Jenn:

And so everyone sees that for the first time that they're working together and

Jenn:

that's kind of what brings the Tina who knows that that's actually what happened.

Jenn:

But in essence it is what happened.

Jenn:

Yeah, because they did do that, the two of them together, and they,

Jenn:

they went to the state championship, they went to the state champion.

Jenn:

So you have to have a winning.

Jenn:

Cohesive team.

Jenn:

To win a state championship.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

That, so I had to celebrate Julius Campbell, he's number 81.

Jenn:

He's buried there.

Jenn:

He's right.

Jenn:

Like he's right on the street.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

You can't miss him.

Jenn:

And I had to celebrate his life.

Jenn:

And just to know that was Alexandria to know that that all took place there.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

I mean, so

Scott:

think about it, it's like across the river from

Scott:

the nation's capital mm-hmm.

Scott:

, i, I, for some reason, even.

Scott:

Thought of, re remember the Titans, even though I know that they went

Scott:

to Gettysburg, Gettysburg Camp training, training camp for camp.

Scott:

Mm-hmm.

Scott:

. I, for some reason in my head when I thought of the movie, I

Scott:

think of like the Deep South.

Scott:

Yeah, like somewhere in Mississippi or something like that.

Scott:

Mm-hmm.

Scott:

. And then all of a sudden when we're talking about it, it's like, oh my gosh.

Scott:

No, it was, it was right here.

Scott:

Yes.

Scott:

And in Alexandria, which is, DC's Washington DC's

Scott:

next door neighbor, so yeah.

Scott:

That was, that was really, really neat.

Scott:

So moving on from, from there, we actually went down to a couple of

Scott:

kind of old, some older graves.

Scott:

I mean, there was re one Revolutionary War grave.

Jenn:

Yes.

Jenn:

So we went to like two Confederate graves basically, and a Revolutionary War grave.

Jenn:

So we stop at James Mason's grave and James Mason.

Jenn:

You might not know the name.

Jenn:

But he , he was one of the early.

Jenn:

Backers, or would you say supporters of the Confederacy?

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

When Virginia has succeeded from the union, he also, he, he put

Jenn:

his support in the Confederacy.

Jenn:

So much so that he.

Jenn:

Tried to go to England to get support from the British that's

Jenn:

right, to back the Confederacy.

Jenn:

And he went on the a ship called the Trent, and the Trent

Jenn:

was stopped by a union ship.

Jenn:

And they put them, he put, they put him in prison in Boston, but because

Jenn:

the British were upset because.

Jenn:

That they were coming to give them money and they were gonna work out a deal.

Jenn:

And then they,

Scott:

yeah.

Scott:

And he, he was essentially like, they kind of made him like

Scott:

the Secretary of State for the

Jenn:

Confederacy.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

So this became the trend affair deal.

Jenn:

Like this was a big deal deal.

Jenn:

This almost pulled England into the Civil War.

Jenn:

That's, they would've probably backed the Confederacy side and who knows

Jenn:

what kind of aid they could have given and who knows how it could

Jenn:

have turned the tides of that war.

Jenn:

Because they were stopped because Trent was put in pr because

Jenn:

Ma Mason was put in prison.

Jenn:

The British didn't see the, the benefit Sure.

Jenn:

Of joining the, so like it kind stayed out of it, but if he would've made

Jenn:

it over there, could have negotiated, who knows what could've happened.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

But that, but he's, he's instrumental in the Trent affair and that, that

Jenn:

is his grave there in Alexandria.

Jenn:

So, but then we walk over to Samuel Cooper, who's super.

Jenn:

Cool.

Jenn:

There was a

Scott:

couple.

Scott:

It

Jenn:

was a family plot.

Jenn:

Yes.

Jenn:

Again, so, so Mason's a family plot and Cooper's a family plot.

Jenn:

And actually there is a connection between Mason and Cooper.

Jenn:

Oh.

Jenn:

Because Samuel Cooper.

Jenn:

Son who you'll see the Confederate Samuel Cooper was married to Mason's sister.

Jenn:

Oh.

Jenn:

Oh, I didn't, I don't think I caught that.

Jenn:

So, so yeah, I just, I just read that myself.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

Find a grave, find a grave.

Jenn:

We'll show you who's connected to so that's kind of, they're all

Jenn:

right there in the same family.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

So

Scott:

tell us a little bit about like, I, I'll call him Cooper

Jenn:

Sr.

Jenn:

Okay.

Jenn:

So Cooper Sr.

Jenn:

Has a, again, a cool marker that's given you his whole bio.

Jenn:

There

Scott:

was the.

Scott:

Marker.

Scott:

That must have fallen down on the ground.

Scott:

Yeah, it put it on the ground.

Scott:

Mm-hmm.

Scott:

. Cause the stone's probably so old.

Scott:

And then they created basically in an exact replica.

Scott:

Yes, but it's, it's actually standing upright, so you get to see.

Scott:

The original one.

Scott:

Yes.

Scott:

I imagine it's the original one.

Scott:

Yes.

Scott:

And then basically like a more modern version, like they've,

Scott:

they've kind of fixed it up a little

Jenn:

bit.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

So here's the Samuel Samuel Cooper is born in 1756.

Jenn:

He's 16 years old at the Boston Tea Party, which he attends, which

Jenn:

he's part of at 16 years old.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

Then he's in the battle Bunker Hill.

Jenn:

He's in the Battle of Mammoth.

Jenn:

He's in like all of.

Jenn:

Huge Revolutionary War battles.

Jenn:

He's a part of them.

Jenn:

He's coming of age in 1776.

Jenn:

He's 20 years old, so he's going to all these battles of the Revolutionary

Jenn:

War fighting beside George Washington.

Jenn:

It's just instrumental in winning the Revolutionary War.

Jenn:

So he has a.

Jenn:

A couple stars and recognition there for what he did.

Jenn:

He finished as a

Scott:

major?

Scott:

Yes.

Scott:

Now his, was it his son or his grandson?

Jenn:

It's his son.

Jenn:

Okay.

Jenn:

Because I, I looked it up.

Jenn:

So he must have had him when he was 40 years old, which is not crazy.

Jenn:

So his son, Samuel Cooper, who's buried right beside him, has a marker.

Jenn:

He's the highest ranking.

Jenn:

Person General in the Confederacy higher than Robert E.

Jenn:

Lee.

Jenn:

That's cra.

Jenn:

That's crazy.

Jenn:

His name is also Samuel Cooper.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

And he's right beside him.

Jenn:

So then you get like a CSA star, RightSo, a Confederate, states of Confederate

Jenn:

of the Army, Confederate of America.

Jenn:

I've seen it both ways.

Jenn:

But a CSA star very beside, so it's very odd . Yeah.

Jenn:

Now Samuel Cooper Sr.

Jenn:

Passes away in 1840, so well before the Civil War.

Jenn:

So not there to kind of put his boot in his son's butt, say, what are you doing,

Jenn:

? Scott: Hey there kiddo.

Jenn:

You're fighting for the wrong side.

Jenn:

But they're buried beside each other there and and they're,

Jenn:

they're very close to the road and,

Scott:

yeah, and, and that's the, i, I guess one.

Scott:

Nice thing about the way that this cemetery's set up.

Scott:

It's large.

Scott:

Mm-hmm.

Scott:

, but there's roads kind of running between the different Yes.

Scott:

Kind of the, it's very eg

Jenn:

segmented cemeteries.

Jenn:

Very walkable cemetery.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

Like I said, a lot of people walk in there.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

We see, we

Scott:

saw a ton of people walking their dogs and jogging.

Scott:

Jogging coming through.

Scott:

Mm-hmm.

Scott:

and, and all that stuff.

Scott:

So Cuz it's right smack in the middle of the city.

Scott:

There's apartment buildings on, on every side.

Scott:

Yes.

Scott:

Basical.

Scott:

Yes.

Scott:

So even like when we were talking about the, the Douglas Cemetery, right?

Scott:

Again, I, I kind of like to step back and talk about the setting.

Scott:

It was an interesting setting because, there's the very formal, and we'll

Scott:

talk about it here in just a minute, Alex Alexandria National Cemetery,

Scott:

very formal closed gates, white stones.

Scott:

You saw the, the picture of our thumbnail and the reason I included

Scott:

the picture that particular picture for the thumbnail is I kind.

Scott:

The two different, like the dichotomy of this wall going down the middle and

Scott:

there's Alexandria National Cemetery on the left, and then there's what was

Scott:

probably, some not taking care of graves.

Scott:

I don't know if this was one of the colored cemeteries Sure.

Scott:

At the time, but it was like it was stones falling over and this, that and the other.

Scott:

And so it was two.

Scott:

Very different.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

Cemeteries literally just divided by a wall.

Scott:

And so that setting amongst smack in the middle of a city with apartment

Scott:

buildings, and then we'll talk about ho's run and it was, it was just different.

Scott:

It was really, really neat.

Jenn:

Well, and I want people to understand too with the Frederick

Jenn:

Douglass Cemetery in particular, Just because that's where they have

Jenn:

identified the locations now does not mean buildings have not been built over.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

Where Graves were.

Jenn:

Yep.

Jenn:

So in most old cities of America, cemeteries were on

Jenn:

the outskirts of the city.

Jenn:

However, as cities have grown and grow out, those graves are either relocated.

Jenn:

Or not relocated and just built over.

Jenn:

And one example, prime example will be Memphis, Tennessee,

Jenn:

because the, the main cemetery in Memphis, Tennessee, some tombstones

Jenn:

were moved, the graves were not.

Jenn:

And now it's the parking lot for St.

Jenn:

Jude.

Scott:

Oh yeah, you've mentioned that.

Scott:

I remember

Jenn:

you've mentioned that.

Jenn:

Mm-hmm.

Jenn:

, I remember you've mentioned that a couple times and that is pretty common.

Jenn:

You're gonna see probably that a lot in New York City there.

Jenn:

Times in New York City digging foundations or digging subways and they hit graves.

Jenn:

There was a very interesting city where they found a metal grave.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

They did a whole p b s special on it.

Jenn:

It's very interesting.

Jenn:

Hmm.

Jenn:

They were popular in the early 18 hundreds, unless the cemetery is.

Jenn:

Marked maintained there's some kind of trust to take care of it.

Jenn:

It can go into disrepair and if that land is, is prime urban land, you

Jenn:

could be living over those graves.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

I

Scott:

mean, interesting.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

No, I, that, that doesn't, that doesn't surprise me.

Scott:

Even though it's surprising when I hear about it.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

, it doesn't surprise me that that happens.

Scott:

Mm-hmm.

Scott:

. Cause I've, I've heard of that happening before.

Scott:

Now if we're moving on Yes.

Scott:

From James Mason and Samuel Cooper.

Scott:

Mm-hmm.

Scott:

again, right next to those kind of, at the end of the street.

Scott:

Was the much, much more formal Alexandria National Cemetery.

Scott:

So beautiful.

Scott:

It was, it was gorgeous.

Scott:

We talked a little bit about it, so you guys have heard the background?

Scott:

Mm-hmm.

Scott:

, essentially this was the precursor to Arlington National Cemetery.

Scott:

Yes.

Scott:

I think you said it was a, they really kind of started using that

Scott:

spot when there was yellow fever that that swept through in the early 18

Jenn:

hundreds.

Jenn:

Yes.

Jenn:

They started using the whole cemetery, but the national cemetery

Jenn:

wasn't really started until the beginning of the Civil War.

Jenn:

When they just had so many unknown soldiers in the first couple battles, and

Jenn:

they needed to bury them and the, the, the federal government needed to bury them.

Jenn:

What's interesting about that, it's not a large cemetery, which is why

Jenn:

you could probably see it, it would run out of space relatively quickly.

Jenn:

It is beautiful.

Jenn:

I had seen it for the first time doing the female stranger again when

Jenn:

the wreaths were all still on the graves for Christmas, so it was.

Jenn:

, just breathtaking.

Jenn:

But one of the things we visit there is there is a marker to four gentlemen who

Jenn:

died in the pursuit of John Wilkes booth.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

And they died of drowning crossing the Potomac.

Jenn:

That's right.

Jenn:

And they were civilians that worked for the quartermaster.

Jenn:

So they weren't technically military, but they are buried.

Jenn:

In Arlington, I mean in Alexandria National Cemetery.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

We're here.

Jenn:

We looked that up, kind of think after the fact.

Jenn:

Yes.

Jenn:

So there's a marker to them.

Jenn:

It's like a boulder with a bronze statue on it.

Jenn:

And they are, the four of them are buried in Alexandria National Cemetery

Jenn:

for their service to their country in pursuit of the assassin booth, John.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

That's, that's so interesting.

Scott:

And, and sometimes, I'm surprised that, I'm surprised because I'm, I'm

Scott:

wandering around Virginia and DC and the East coast, and I'm like, oh my gosh.

Scott:

That's tied to what that other thing that we just visited.

Scott:

We went to Booth's house.

Scott:

Mm-hmm.

Scott:

, and we went to, or Dr.

Scott:

Dr.

Scott:

Mud's house.

Scott:

Mm-hmm.

Scott:

. And we went to this, we went to that and Oh yeah, this is the

Scott:

same thing as that over there.

Scott:

I was like, It was all in the same area.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

So, because that's where a lot of American history started, ha was

Scott:

happening for a very long time.

Jenn:

Sure.

Jenn:

And when he crosses, when he get leaves, Ford's theater, he's

Jenn:

going straight to, he's cutting through Alexandria, basically.

Jenn:

Like he's cutting down that direction.

Jenn:

And so of course people would be pursuing from that, who lived around that area.

Jenn:

Another historical location is at the back of the Alexandria National

Jenn:

Cemetery.

Scott:

That, that was interesting.

Scott:

Kind of a little, little bit heavier of a, of a topic.

Scott:

Yes.

Scott:

But it's interesting, and I'm glad we

Jenn:

covered it.

Jenn:

So, ho's run was a, a, a water feature.

Jenn:

A waterway.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

Creek or something.

Jenn:

Creek area.

Jenn:

And Alexandria is a port.

Jenn:

So when enslaved ships would come in to Alexandria from

Jenn:

Middle Passage, so from Africa.

Jenn:

They would take the enslaved off and make them bathe in ho's run.

Jenn:

And so you have women, children and men who are bathing in

Jenn:

hoofs run before they go into.

Jenn:

The slave markets.

Jenn:

I don't like calling 'em slave markets, mostly like human trafficking.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

Prisons before being transferred into, larger enslaved areas.

Jenn:

Who knows how long the treks they're making.

Jenn:

But to Mississippi, Louisiana Alabama.

Jenn:

So these are the, this is the place that they would bathe.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

And it looked like there

Scott:

was a lot of work being done there.

Scott:

And I don't know if that was because again, there's an apartment

Scott:

building across the street.

Scott:

Mm-hmm.

Scott:

or, or.

Scott:

Or if they were actually building something up over there, because

Scott:

I, I could imagine some sort of walkway tribute to that.

Scott:

Yes.

Scott:

Because that would be an amazing kind of just historical, kind of feature

Scott:

around the cemetery where everybody's always walking and running and Yes.

Jenn:

I think they are building some kind of remembrance.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

Some sort of

Scott:

tribute or tribute, something like that.

Scott:

Marker.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

So, so that was, that was neat to see.

Scott:

And again, and I'll.

Scott:

I don't do it too much, but I like to too my own horn.

Scott:

I got a couple compliments on some of the videography and stuff and so it

Scott:

is good videography and so just show showing the, showing hoofs run there

Scott:

and kind of like get a little bit of a feel for what must have happened there.

Scott:

Mm-hmm.

Scott:

. So that was, it was interesting cuz there's not much there.

Scott:

It's not like it's, this is a river there, there was like very, very little mm-hmm.

Scott:

, and again, this is a couple hundred years ago.

Scott:

Sure.

Scott:

. It was interesting that all that's happening right there.

Scott:

And it's called out.

Scott:

I mean, you look at, you look at ho's run on Google Maps.

Scott:

Mm-hmm.

Scott:

and it, it points it out right there.

Scott:

Yes.

Scott:

It's a known spot, of

Jenn:

history.

Jenn:

So what'd you get?

Jenn:

You're getting life and death hardship, overcoming, terrible hardship.

Jenn:

This is history.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

This is the history of, a pretty.

Jenn:

, significant suburb of our nation's capital.

Jenn:

It's all there in one location and that's, I mean, we, we

Jenn:

don't do a ton of graveyards.

Jenn:

We do a couple, but we always have enjoyed doing those kinds of videos

Jenn:

because they're so different.

Jenn:

The history makers and the people that are buried in a cemetery and there's

Jenn:

so much history to cover in their lives that it is just a, a pleasure.

Jenn:

Like even this story, you get people.

Jenn:

Every war represented and even current affairs and movies are made out of,

Jenn:

and they're all in one location.

Jenn:

And that's why cemeteries to me are always just fascinating, isn't, yeah.

Scott:

I mean, not only is it slightly easier for us to kind of.

Scott:

Film a video because it's all in one location, even though half the time

Scott:

we're trying to hunt these things down.

Scott:

So it's good to have kids if you're ever looking for cemeteries, because

Scott:

you can just cut, cut 'em loose.

Scott:

Hey, this is the name we're looking for.

Scott:

Yes, go run around and find it.

Scott:

Our youngest

Jenn:

found McLean.

Jenn:

Yeah, that's right.

Jenn:

You guys.

Jenn:

We could find him for a

Scott:

while.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

These interesting characters sometimes, they're, I have other kind of production

Scott:

and podcasts and video ideas that I've always thought about doing.

Scott:

Mm-hmm.

Scott:

and you we, we joke about who's the interesting character from.

Scott:

From Gettysburg that we always dance sickles.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

So we always laugh about him, but I think he's an interesting character.

Scott:

Mm-hmm.

Scott:

, I would love to make a podcast series about him.

Scott:

Yes, we were.

Scott:

Or even like, or Wil Wilmer.

Scott:

McLean.

Scott:

Wilmer.

Scott:

I think he's an interesting one.

Scott:

He's just one of those interesting characters in history who's got this?

Scott:

He wasn't a huge contributor, but he was just there.

Scott:

Yes.

Scott:

And just.

Scott:

For some reason he kept popping up on, on the map, and I just

Scott:

thought that was so interesting.

Scott:

So that's, to me, are some of the things that I kind of take

Scott:

some joy out of for myself.

Scott:

Mm-hmm.

Scott:

is these interesting characters, and the, the hermit that lived at Fort

Scott:

Norfolk for a little while, like, I thought he was really interesting.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

And this, that, and the other.

Scott:

So, That's the thing I like about finding these little interesting

Scott:

nuggets of history that we get to bring and share with you guys.

Scott:

You won't find it really otherwise unless you're really kind of out there

Scott:

looking, and that's what we like to do and that's what we like to share.

Scott:

Thank you for listening to the Talk with History podcast, and please reach out to

Scott:

us at our website, talk with history.com.

Scott:

But more importantly, if you know someone else that might enjoy this

Jenn:

podcast, please share this with them, especially if

Jenn:

you think that today's topic

Scott:

would hinders a.

Scott:

Shoot him a text and tell 'em to look up the Talk of History podcast because

Scott:

we rely on you, our community to grow and we appreciate you all every day.

Scott:

We'll talk to you next time.

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About the Podcast

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Talk With History: Discover Your History Road Trip
A Historian and Navy Veteran talk about traveling to historic locations

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About your hosts

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Scott B

Host of the Talk With History podcast, Producer over at Walk with History on YouTube, and Editor of TheHistoryRoadTrip.com
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Jennifer B

Former Naval Aviator turned Historian and a loyal Penn Stater. (WE ARE!) I earned my Masters in American History and graduate certificate in Museum Studies, from the University of Memphis.

The Talk with History podcast gives Scott and me a chance to go deeper into the details of our Walk with History YouTube videos and gives you a behind-the-scenes look at our history-inspired adventures.

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