Doc Holliday: Hero, Villain, or Just Misunderstood?

Matthew: 00:00:00

Doc has hero and villain. And I thought that was the most interesting character I had ever laid eyes upon.

Jenn: 00:00:06

And gambling is. I mean, who cares if this is my last go? Who cares if I get involved with a bad guy who's gonna shoot me?

Scott: 00:00:13

Doc.

Matthew: 00:00:14

So he would make up things just to have this larger than life, scary Persona. He killed many, many people. So a lot of those stories are real.

Scott: 00:00:24

This hero that is lacking some heroic qualities. Right.

Jenn: 00:00:28

Do you think Doc Holliday was an ant? Think he was misunderstood?

Matthew: 00:00:33

If you didn't have a drink with him, it would just blow your jaw. Just truly, you didn't know what he was going to do next.

Scott: 00:00:49

And this is our interview with a book author, Matthew DePauli. He wrote a book on Doc Holiday. It's a historical fiction. And for our watchers and our listeners, this is.

This was a super fun conversation because Doc Holliday is such a colorful character. And Matthew, the author, did a fair amount of research.

Jenn: 00:01:09

Yeah. And we talk about that research compared to how we know these characters ourselves and how we've seen them on screen and who portrays them the best.

And we've had a very good conversation about that and how they move into a legend status, especially these men of the American west, what they did in their lives and what they did, didn't do in their lives and how they move into a legend. And it was a very great conversation.

Scott: 00:01:33

So I hope you enjoy our conversation with Matt DePauley. So today we are joined by Matthew DePauli. And we've actually been trying to set this interview up for quite some time.

And I think we had first connected just before Jen and I moved from, from Norfolk to. Out here to Memphis. And then we've been getting settled in.

So I really appreciate your patience and kind of joining us now, you're jumping on because you wrote a book called Holiday, all about Doc Holliday, kind of the western character that most people probably know and some people love.

So, Matthew, kind of tell us a little bit about the book and how you kind of came on that topic and why you wanted to write something about Doc Holliday.

Matthew: 00:02:28

Yeah, well, I hope a lot of people love him. I think he's a lovable character, even though he was, you know, a difficult one maybe to deal with sometimes.

But early on I, I was watching a lot of westerns with my grandfather, you know, a lot of Sergio Leone, you know, and, and John Wayne and things like that.

Scott: 00:02:44

Oh, yeah.

Matthew: 00:02:45

And then I, I came upon a little later, Tombstone. And Tombstone kind of changed my whole View of, like, who was a real hero in the West.

And Doc has hero and villain, you know, And I thought that was the most interesting character I had ever laid eyes upon. So I kind of put it in the back of my head. And then, you know, years later, I was like, I want to do this. So, you know, six months I did research.

I read his great, I guess, granddaughter's book and all these other books. And, you know, for six months I was just like inundated with Doc Holliday facts and what's fiction and what's lore and what I could do with this.

So I knew it was going to be historical fiction because there's so much that we don't know about them. But there's also. It was. It was a nice roadmap.

Scott: 00:03:31

Yeah. So one of the things that I found really interesting, not only like one, I love the look of the book and Tombstone. Right. That speaks to my heart.

I love that movie. Like, it's. That's just an ultra classic. And so I'm super curious to get my hands on your book.

One of the things that I found interesting was your choice to kind of write in that he was seeking out the Fountain of Youth. Was that something that you had actually read or is that just. You kind of. It fit with your story for him seeking to.

To hopefully make himself better as part of your story?

Matthew: 00:04:06

Yeah. So that's. That's a great question. Because that was not in the original version. And I wanted. I felt like he was so aimless and.

Because he kind of was, right. He knew he was going to die and. And I didn't want that to be so known. Right. It was like, I wanted it to be something where maybe he could survive.

Scott: 00:04:24

Yeah.

Matthew: 00:04:25

And, you know, and so leave the reader a little bit of this hope and that. That he had this hope and that Kate had this hope. And I thought that would be cool.

Scott: 00:04:33

Yeah. And I love that idea because that's pulling the reader in because the reader knows, like, hey, no, we know. We've watched Tombstone.

We're probably reading it. Cause they're a fan of that. But then they see this. They're like, ooh, okay, maybe, maybe, maybe this time. Right. And so. So I absolutely love that.

Jenn: 00:04:50

Yeah. And I think like you said, if people know anything about Doc Holliday, it's that he was basically going to die.

He had been diagnosed with tuberculosis and he traveled out west thinking he didn't have a lot of time left. So most of his decision making and his life is really on that cusp. Of my last. This is my last hurrah. This is my last chance.

You know, I think he gets into gambling a lot because he's not making the money in the dentistry, and gambling is. I mean, who cares if this is my last go? Who cares if I get involved with a bad guy who's going to shoot me? I mean, I'm making a lot of money.

This is going to fund a fun lifestyle in the here instead of the later. And he's just kind of going for it. I really want to know, who do you think portrayed Doc Holliday the best?

After you've done all the research now and you've learned about him and it's been. He's been played by a lot of famous people. Who do you think captured his character the best?

Matthew: 00:05:51

I mean, I'm Val Kilmer all the way. Like, I just think he did such a great job. You know, he was actually born with a cleft palette and that little, that, that twang and then he.

It's almost wrong a little bit. Right. He's, he's got the. Almost like a lisp and, and tombstone. He does it so perfectly. And he's, he's just that perfect pallid color. I love.

I mean, Dennis Quaid did a really good job in, in Wyatt Earp, too. I don't want to take that away from him. But Val Kilmer, that's.

Scott: 00:06:18

That, that's, that's amazing. Now, I was looking around on some of the links that you provided to us, and I noticed, Right. We were chatting before we went live here, that.

So you said you're from New York. So I, I noticed it appears you were a Jets fan. You're. You're, you're a football fan, a Jets fan.

Do you think that Doc Holiday would be a Jets fan or a football fan?

Matthew: 00:06:41

Football, yes. Because he is one of the most American figures. Right, right. Along with wider.

Scott: 00:06:47

Yes, definitely betting on the games.

Matthew: 00:06:50

Exactly. He'd probably be betting on the Chiefs. Let's be honest. He was a good gambler. He was not going to be betting on the Jets.

Scott: 00:07:00

I saw that. I just had to ask. I was like, okay, like, how much of yourself did you write into this character? When it cut.

When it comes to, to that, when you're writing this book, when you said you did six months of research, was there, that kind of like, surprised you along the way?

Matthew: 00:07:15

Yeah, I mean, so his, his whole affair with his cousin, I thought, was. It really shaped his life.

He was in love with her to the very end, and she joined A convent, basically, because the family didn't approve of their love affair. And it was this whole kind of sordid deal.

And she actually became one of the characters in Gone with the Wind, which is really crazy because they had a very famous family. So. Yeah, not a lot of people know that.

Scott: 00:07:39

Yeah. That's super interesting, Jen. You love that movie.

Jenn: 00:07:42

I love that movie. That's so cool. So did you go anywhere? Did you. Besides the research, did you go to, like. Did you try to find his grave?

I know they say it's in two separate places. Did you try to, like, follow his footsteps a little bit?

Matthew: 00:07:53

You know, it's crazy. I didn't. I still want to get out there. I want to go to Tombstone. I want to go to Colorado Springs. And I. I didn't.

And it was almost mythologized to me, but I feel like, you know, like, don't meet your heroes. Like, I don't want to see them there, you know, so it was. It was really through the pictures and through the.

And there are so many great photographs of all the bars and stuff. And so I did most of my research that way.

Scott: 00:08:18

Yeah, that's super cool. We. We got the opportunity to do, like, a family road trip a couple years ago. We went out to Deadwood, and. And that was amazing. Like, I.

I know it's like after you've done all this research, you're like, I don't know, because maybe it's not as. As large as it will be in my head, but I would encourage you to. To go out there. Deadwood was amazing.

I know that's a different part of the country, kind of. He was more in Colorado.

Jenn: 00:08:39

He. So I grew up in Cheyenne, too. So I come from a military family, and we were stationed in Cheyenne for eight years. So he made his way.

He's like, most of the guys there during that time are coming up through Colorado, through Cheyenne. He spent a little time in Cheyenne, then he goes up to Deadward, Then he comes back down, and he ends up in Colorado Springs to die.

But he's like, in Kansas. He's all over. Like, most of those guys were.

Then they kind of just traveled with the gambling and the money, and they were, you know, they led that no man kind of life. But I would definitely. You want to do a road trip. You want to, like, get in your car and go.

Because you want to, like, be on the road and look at the scenery as you're out there and imagine. Because that hasn't changed.

And so you can imagine what they were Seeing in their stagecoaches or on their horses and, you know, go up through Fort Laramie, go up through all where Calamity Jane and they all kind of ran together. And it really is a beautiful part.

Matthew: 00:09:34

Of the country, I'm convinced. You go.

Scott: 00:09:38

Now, some of the other characters you mentioned that I believe I remember kind of reading around, seeing that Wyatt Earp kind of made it in and out of your book, kind of. Did you research him as well, or was it really kind of however he interacted with Doc Holliday throughout this.

Matthew: 00:09:52

Yeah, well, I mean, of course, it's like how he interacted with Doc Holliday, but there's no Wyatt without Doc Holliday. Doc Holliday saves his life very early on, and he. He pledges and he says this, like, throughout his lifetime.

Doc Holliday saved my life, and that's why I'm his friend. And they were truly great friends. They loved each other and. And it becomes almost like.

It's kind of like a bromance in the book, you know, I mean, that's almost the better romance than him and Kate because they were so toxic. We're really a terrible couple. But. But he and Wyatt, like, you know, Wyatt visits him, you know, on his. On a death site and. And Kate doesn't. Yeah.

So it's like that was the real, you know.

Scott: 00:10:33

Yeah. And then when it.

When it comes to, you know, some of the kind of larger than life, you know, tall tales that involve Doc Holliday and involve Wyatt Earp, as you were doing this research, are there some that kind of lived up to that hype or are pretty much all of them like. No. Movie cinema made them a lot bigger than what they were.

Matthew: 00:10:55

Doc, so he would make up things just to have this larger than life, scary Persona because he didn't have.

Scott: 00:11:03

He.

Matthew: 00:11:03

He couldn't, like, physically fight, but he was an incredibly skilled gunman. He killed many, many people. So a lot of those stories are real.

And the reason he was moving around so much is because he was constantly, like, fleeing, you know, murder charges, get a lot of gambling charges. Kate did start, you know, like, all this stuff.

Kate did start a fire to break him, you know, whether it was breaking out of jail or breaking out of, like, house arrest, whatever it was. Yeah, these stories were real and sometimes a little bit embellished, but I was amazed to find out how many of them were real.

Scott: 00:11:32

How. How interesting. And it's. It's funny because Jen and I are getting ready to publish a video about. We talk about the Searchers and we, we.

We kind of call it the Searchers versus the Sopranos. Like this anti hero concept. And it sounds like Doc Holliday, I mean, definitely has some of those qualities. Right.

This hero that is lacking some heroic qualities. Right. And that is like gunning people down and running from the law.

Jenn: 00:11:57

Yeah.

But he sounds like a anti hero because he's such good friends with Wyatt Earp and he's willing to do everything to protect that friendship and be there with him at the okay Corral. Right. Like, he is an expert gunman. He doesn't let him go by himself. Right. And. But he's on these murder charges.

He's trying to escape the law, I think. Doesn't Bat Masterson help him get out of prison, jail at one point? Like.

Matthew: 00:12:22

Yeah, that is. It's interesting because Bat was the one who kind of spread more nefarious rumors about him.

I don't think that much, but that would tolerate him because of why that was really good friends with Wyatt.

Jenn: 00:12:34

Gotcha.

Scott: 00:12:34

Yeah, that. That's. That's interesting. And actually, you mentioned the okay Corral. I think we had. We had someone else on the podcast.

Like, this is probably a year and a half ago. Her. Is it Great grandmother. Yeah, her great grandmother was a witness at the OK Corral show.

Matthew: 00:12:48

Really?

Scott: 00:12:49

Yeah, she was from the area and. Yeah. Which was that. That was pretty wild. Just to kind of hear that.

Jenn: 00:12:55

We haven't been there yet. Yeah, that's like on our bucket list.

Matthew: 00:12:58

That's definitely on my bucket list, for sure.

Jenn: 00:13:00

Yeah.

Scott: 00:13:01

That would be a cool one. So are you kind of looking at continuing kind of writing in this arena since you've done this, or I see that you're.

The book you wrote before, this was definitely different kind of pocket of history and historical fiction. Is this something that's kind of continued your interest since you've been writing this?

Matthew: 00:13:19

So my interest is always here, but I have a lot of. I like to change up what I'm doing. So it's always kind of like in the thriller vein.

But the next book that I'm writing and then I'll be coming out in the next couple of months is Kill Stanbul, which had previously been published and now is being published again. And it's about a contract killer living in Reykjavik and he's taught how to kill by these little Yule lads who are like little Santa Clauses.

So it's this magical realist kind of same in the same vein as Found of youth kind of thing. So there's the thread of those things. But I'm not sticking necessarily with historical fiction.

Jenn: 00:13:54

Okay, cool. So how long does it take you to write a book?

Matthew: 00:13:57

About two years. It's been pretty consistent. I've written a few and yeah, it's. It's like six months of research and then a year and a half if.

If I can write consistently and not let other things get in the way.

Scott: 00:14:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's. That's something that Jen's chipping away at. Chipping away at as well. You know, some historical fiction type stuff.

Jenn: 00:14:15

Very cool. So what is your opinion then, after it's all said and done? You've been in his head, you've written about him.

Do you think Doc Holliday was an anti hero? Do you think he was misunderstood? Do you think he was, you know, doing the best he could with the cards he got dealt to him in his life?

Like, what do you think about him at the end?

Matthew: 00:14:34

Yes. I mean, all, all of those. Definitely an anti hero. He kind of.

I mean, he took such good care of his mother, and that's how he got consumption, you know, and then he had to leave. He was a great dentist. He was incredibly smart. He spoke Latin. He spoke great. I mean, you know, he was really well educated.

He was an incredible piano player. You know, he had all these, like, amazing skills that.

One of the reasons that he was so good with a gun was his mother used to put pennies on his hands to steady his hands for playing the piano. And so he became an incredible gunman because his hands were so steady.

Scott: 00:15:09

Steady hands. How interesting.

Jenn: 00:15:10

That's so cool.

Matthew: 00:15:12

Yeah, so he. But he was a little bit misunderstood. I think. He was a real sweetheart at his core.

And he would, you know, he always wrote these letters to Maddie and she burned them because she said that it would change everyone's view of Doc Holliday. And she wanted him to be remembered as he was.

Scott: 00:15:29

Oh, wow, how interesting. So she kind of wanted him to have the. The reputation that he was building up for himself.

Matthew: 00:15:36

Right. And because. Because he wanted that. So she realized, like, I should let him have that.

Scott: 00:15:41

Yeah. Yeah.

Jenn: 00:15:42

Well, it's also, like really smart of a gambler because when you think about it, like if you watch poker players, they talk crap to each other across the table and they're trying to psych each other out. And for him to be able to weave the tales about his, you know, his. His murders and, you know, taking someone down and he doesn't back down.

And he's very good gunman. Like, he could weave those tails. Gambling table Right. And it scares the other people around him and makes you a better gambler in the end.

So I can see how those kind of go hand in hand with his life is being a big gambler and the legend kind of works together for his lifestyle. Now I know there's controversy about where he's buried. Some people say it is where he passed away in Colorado.

Some people say his father brought him back to Georgia. What. In your research, did anything pop out that seemed, you know, to lean one way or the other?

Matthew: 00:16:36

I, I would be very surprised if his father did anything. You know, I, I just don't think. I think that he's in Colorado Springs and that's, that's where he, you know, that's where he is.

And I did not have a good relationship with his father, and he. He left, you know, for that reason. And he was extremely angry at his father for marrying, you know, so soon after his mother passed.

You're supposed to let a year go by and he did not. So I, I don't. That relationship was frayed at best.

Scott: 00:17:05

So.

So when it comes to, to Doc Holliday's upbringing, you mentioned his mother a little bit and kind of, you know, playing piano and the pennies on the hands, which I, I think is such a cool visual. What I mean, did he come from. Was his family from money or was he kind of like middle class? Like, what, what was his, his upbringing that kind of.

He ran off, but had all these. This amazing education and skills.

Matthew: 00:17:25

Yeah, they. They did come from a good amount of money. The, The. His dad was like, fairly well known as a, you know, a major in the, in the army. And his.

I think his uncle founded like a, a place called, you know, Holiday. And like, they, they were from money in the South.

Scott: 00:17:42

Okay.

Matthew: 00:17:43

Yeah.

Scott: 00:17:43

All right.

So that, that makes a little more sense, like with the, with his education and the piano playing and, and doing all that, and then split from the family and then he runs off and he's like this crazy wild west legend, you know, for the rest of his life.

Matthew: 00:17:57

Right. Yeah. And his uncle was a dentist. Yeah. So they had a. They had a very strong family.

Scott: 00:18:01

Okay.

Jenn: 00:18:02

You know, I find it interesting, Matthew, like, he gets tuberculosis from his mother consumption because it is very contagious. Contagious. And then he becomes a dentist. And so he's looking in people's mouths without. They don't wear coverings back then. He's coughing.

And so I can understand how that job didn't pan out because people would. I think when he opened his first practice in Dallas. Right. Because he wanted to move to the west and the south to the drier air.

That's what they always said for people with consumption.

Scott: 00:18:34

Right.

Jenn: 00:18:34

Get to the drier air for your lungs. But if you're looking in people's mouths and then coughing in people's mouths, I don't think you would be going to see him anymore.

Matthew: 00:18:44

No, you're. You're right. So, physics, what happened? He was actually a great dentist. He won awards. He was fantastic at it.

But, yes, his partner eventually was like, you got to leave because you're coughing in people's mouths. All of our business. Yeah. So he basically pushed him out of the dentistry practice and the only thing he had left was gambling.

He was really good at it. And like you said before, he had this reputation, so people wanted to go up against him, but then they were afraid of him and. And things like that.

So he ended up winning quite a lot. And of course, he had down times, too.

Jenn: 00:19:16

Yeah, yeah. So let's talk a little bit about big nose Kate now. Big nose Kate, you know, he meets her. Does he marry her? I. I don't really know if he does.

Like, I feel like she liked him more than he really liked her. Is that kind of what came out in your research?

Matthew: 00:19:32

No. Well, not exactly. So they loved each other and hated each other. They were the typical, like. Like I said, toxic couple. Right.

But they never actually married. But they were together for so long that you could call them like Commonwealth married. And. And they would sign in as, like, Mr. And Mrs.

John Henry Holiday. Right. So they pretended or that or they kind of seem like they were married, but they never actually were. But I think that there was true love there.

And then they would both go on benders and she would go back to, you know, whatever she was doing at the bars and just sometimes just to make him angry.

Jenn: 00:20:07

Sure.

Matthew: 00:20:08

You know, so a lot of it was to spite each other, but there was always a love there, even though by the end they weren't really together.

Jenn: 00:20:15

Yeah. Yeah. But that's kind of who people remember with him more than anybody else is big nose Kate. And I.

I don't know if her nose was really that big, like, when you look at pictures.

Matthew: 00:20:26

It wasn't.

Jenn: 00:20:26

I know, I'm.

Matthew: 00:20:27

It wasn't. It was. It was the Earps. The women did not like her and so they gave her that name.

Scott: 00:20:33

Oh, really?

Matthew: 00:20:34

Yeah.

Scott: 00:20:34

Oh, how interesting. Of course.

Jenn: 00:20:36

Women.

Scott: 00:20:36

You know, I'm glad you said it. Not me. Just as you were researching for this book, because you're you're diving kind of headfirst into this stuff.

Was there any characters that kind of, you weren't aware of that they don't portray in movies that that was, was a part of, of Doc Holliday's life?

Matthew: 00:20:55

You know, they're pretty well covered. But I was so fascinated with Johnny Ringo. I thought they did an awesome job in Tombstone, but he was a true psychopath.

You know, he was, he was known to have, you know, if you didn't have a drink with him, he would just, you know, blow your jaw off. You know, just truly you didn't know what he was going to do next.

Scott: 00:21:13

Oh, wow.

Matthew: 00:21:14

And Curly Bill was actually less important kind of in the Cowboys than they portrayed in Tombstone. They kind of showed him as the leader.

It's not exactly that way, but Johnny Ringo was fascinating and I wanted him to, to be really the counterpart, you know, the, the, the real dark side almost of Doc Holliday?

Scott: 00:21:32

I like, I, I love the concept of this book because you have so many colorful characters in such an. In an era when, I mean, there's so many Americans that are just fascinated by this era.

I love the story and I love the fact that kind of you gave a little bit of hint of hope in there with, with the Fountain of Youth, because that's such a cool way to kind of give a different, a different look at it.

Jenn: 00:21:52

It is. And it kind of goes hand in hand with the tuberculosis.

Like, it kind of goes hand in hand with the real part of Doc Holliday's life that really was the. I think the major influence on his life is this, this early diagnosis of consumption that he knew his time was, it was limited and he was.

Whatever he was on borrowed time after what they said, like six months. After the six months that they told him he would live. He's living on borrowed time. Who do you think played the best Wyatt Earp then?

Like, when you think about who plays to have that friendship the best? Like, I know Kur Russell's pretty good, but there's been other Wyatt Earps out there that are.

Matthew: 00:22:31

I kind of. I, I kind of like Kevin Costner in the, in the Herb role. Yeah, I kind of do. Kurt Russell's fine.

Jenn: 00:22:38

Yeah.

Matthew: 00:22:38

And they went on with the, the Maddie romance a little too much for me and that I, I just. Every time Doc Holliday was on screen, I was like, that's what I want to see.

Jenn: 00:22:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. Very cool. And I do like his interaction with. It is with Johnny Ringo.

Matthew: 00:22:52

Right.

Jenn: 00:22:52

When he meets them and he's like, I'm in my prime. Right? Like, I. Yeah, that. That's like my favorite part of the movie. Right. Because it's everything. Val Karma is showing you everything.

He's showing you the consumption. He's showing you that he can barely stand, but he's talking the talk. And even Ringo is not sure, right?

He's not sure because he talks a big talk and he's not backing down. And they're both great actors, so you can imagine that's probably what Doc Holliday was like as far as stature is concerned. Was he really.

Was he a tall guy? Was he a big guy? Like, how did he look?

Matthew: 00:23:29

I think he. Well, he was very slight because of his consumption, but he. I think he was about 5, 10.

Jenn: 00:23:34

Okay, okay. Yeah. So for that time, he was pretty decent.

Scott: 00:23:37

Yeah, yeah.

Matthew: 00:23:38

Fairly tall, but very, very thin and, you know, had to walk with a cane. Although he would beat people with it too. So everything was a weapon for Doc.

Scott: 00:23:48

I need to go watch Tombstone after. After this. I know you got. You got me thinking about it. It's like, that's such a phenomenal movie and I just love those characters.

Jenn: 00:23:55

Yeah, that is a great movie. So as you're writing about Doc Holliday, you're getting into his head, you're writing from his perspective.

Anything that kind of like, did your heart kind of go out to him in some ways, like, this is the lifestyle, these men like. When you think about this western lifestyle, these men are like, they come from most time traumatic upbringings.

They're trying to work through their trauma the best way they can in this lifestyle and the way they're interacting with people, like, anything that's like, misunderstood about Doc Holiday, that. That came out to you.

Matthew: 00:24:29

Well, you know, he was drinking two quarts of whiskey a day. And so I. I think misunderstood, I. I think he realized I can do anything because any day could be his last.

So I think the way that we know him is probably not his reality personality. Right. Like, the last, you know, 10 years of his life was just like, this could be the day I die.

And so I'll get into a gunfight, I'll slash this guy, I'll leave town. It doesn't matter. I don't think that that's who he.

I think who he was was the guy who was taking care of his mother and playing piano and learning Latin and, you know, that was like, at the core of him and loving Maddie. Right?

Jenn: 00:25:15

Yeah.

Matthew: 00:25:16

The person who became a nun, not. Not the person who Became, you know, a prostitute. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Scott: 00:25:24

So was that how long he lived, Ended up living with tuberculosis was like a decade.

Matthew: 00:25:29

Right.

Scott: 00:25:30

Wow, that's a long time.

Jenn: 00:25:32

Yeah. I mean, it was kind of like an unknown. Well, it was a known sickness, but an unknown sickness at the same time.

And it wasn't as studied and like, it had different names for it, but. And how quickly you could succumb to it was different. You said something that kind of made me think about him. So he.

What I think about Doc Holliday and the way you said that is he's living every day like his last. So he's taken huge risks and huge chances.

And because he's taken those huge risks and huge chances, it builds a legend about him that probably wouldn't have happened if he didn't. Wasn't playing that.

Scott: 00:26:10

Those.

Jenn: 00:26:11

Those chance cards, knowing that his life was almost over. So he lived in a very. You. He had a very unique situation going on for himself, and that's where the legend comes out of that.

And I just find that so fascinating about him. Did he ever think he was going to be remembered?

Like, did he ever leave anything behind, like a will or remember me like this, or I want this to be what people know about me? Or did he ever think of himself past his. His life?

Matthew: 00:26:43

I. Not. I mean, he was very much living in the present, living in the moment, but he.

Obviously, things started coming out about him in the papers and he had this huge legend, but towards the end of his life, when he was in Denver, he was kind of nothing. I mean, he. He really became just. Just a guy. People didn't even real, like, realize it was him. He was so, you know, consumed.

Jenn: 00:27:06

Yeah.

Matthew: 00:27:07

Yeah. So I think, like, he saw his legend grow and grow and grow and then diminish.

So he got to almost see his entire life cycle in that short amount of time.

Scott: 00:27:17

Yeah.

And we see that with kind of some of these western characters more regularly than I think I would have initially realized until we started doing more kind of history content like this. Because who was it that we were taught? Was it Wild Bill Hillcock or who.

Jenn: 00:27:31

Buffalo Bill.

Scott: 00:27:31

Buffalo Bill, Right. There's characters like that that have this just legendary era, whether it's a decade or five years or whatever it is. And then the last year.

Ish couple years, they're just living somewhere and nobody realizes who they even are until they pass away. And then all of a sudden, you know, there's a funeral and it hits the newspapers.

Jenn: 00:27:51

Yeah. Like, if you don't die in a gunfight if you.

If you don't move on into legend status from a young age, and you get to live out your life and die from disease, which is very rare, then, yeah, you kind of go into obscurity.

Matthew: 00:28:06

Yeah. The only exception that I can think of is Wyatt Earp, and he ended up in Hollywood telling his story. And that's why we think of him as the guy.

Right, because he was the one telling all the stories.

Scott: 00:28:18

Right. I mean, his history is written by the victors, I guess. Right. You know, he's. He's a prime example of that.

Jenn: 00:28:24

So let me ask this. What made you stumble upon this? Like, so you liked.

Matthew: 00:28:27

You.

Jenn: 00:28:27

You said you liked watching the movies with your grandfather. What books did you write before this that you're like, I'm gonna try to tackle Doc Holliday now. Like, what made you feel like this? I can do this.

I can tell this.

Matthew: 00:28:40

So I. When I was a younger writer, I was really into, like, war and World War II, and I was.

I was kind of trying to do things with the Iraq War and things like that, and they didn't. Didn't feel right. Like, I just didn't feel like I. I could tackle that properly and. But I did feel like I. I could talk about the American west.

And, you know, and once I started researching, I was like, okay, I got this. I know. I know how this feels. I know what this should feel like. And it. And it should feel cinematic. And that's kind of like how I got into it.

Jenn: 00:29:13

Awesome. Okay, so this is. This is going to be a question that comes out of nowhere, and you're going to be like, okay, what True Grit is your favorite?

True Grit. Then if you're talking cinematic here, we. That's one of our biggest videos versions, right?

Scott: 00:29:26

1969.

Jenn: 00:29:27

We compare the two.: 1969

Matthew: 00:29:33

You know, I. It's hard to go against Wayne, but I'm a. I'm a Bridges fan.

Scott: 00:29:38

Okay.

Matthew: 00:29:38

So I'm. I'm gonna stick with that. It might be the wrong answer, but.

Jenn: 00:29:42

There'S no right answer.

Scott: 00:29:43

Yeah, there is no right answer because I. I think they're both great. John Wayne, you know, to me, it was. It was very close. I remember when we were talking about that, and John Wayne, it's.

st John Wayne. Right. But the: 2010

I would have said, yeah,: 2010

He can do anything. But it was. It was definitely a couple fun movies. And you've even mentioned a couple that, that we want to.

That we want to review, like Wyatt Earp and some other ones that we've been wanting to do.

Jenn: 00:30:24

Well, it's like you said, because it's almost like the American west is a character within itself.

Scott: 00:30:28

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:30:28

And so when you shoot that well or you set that scenery well, you can. These people's lives take on like a different role, a different place, and you can't really.

There is some war settings that can do that too, but not the American West. And that expansiveness and that beauty and that untamedness of it, like, it really is something that's it. It's. It is a character to capture.

I only like John Wayne a little bit better than Jeff Bridges. And I tell this because he swings the Winchester and when he swings the Winchester with the one hand, I think he moves into legend status. Right. And.

And Bridges just says two six shooters. And I'm like, come on, you're. You're rooster Cogrow. Like you're supposed to have like to do that with one arm on a horse with one.

Like, come on, there's only one John Way.

Matthew: 00:31:20

And that's it. You know, you're right.

Scott: 00:31:22

Yeah. Well, Matthew, where is the best place for people to find your book? To people to purchase your book? Is it.

Do you have a specific website that's kind of the best place to support you?

Matthew: 00:31:32

Yeah. I mean, Matthew depaoli.com or you could go to Amazon, you could go to Sunbury Press, any of those. That would be amazing. Awesome.

Jenn: 00:31:41

And then what are you working on right now? What did you say your book was right now?

Matthew: 00:31:43

So the next one that'll be coming out is Kill Stanbul and that's the. The Icelandic Contract Killer. And sort of in the same action vein, going from Iceland to Greece to Istanbul.

All these travels and deaths and romances. So if you like Holiday, I think you'll like that too.

Jenn: 00:32:00

I love it.

Scott: 00:32:01

Yeah, I'm definitely going to check out Holiday because I'm trying to find. I'm trying to make more time to actually to read. And so we've been interviewing some authors and I was like, oh, man. Like, these are.

These all sound so good. So I'll definitely get my hands on it. Thank you again for joining us.

And for those watching and for those listening, we'll include Links to where you can find the book and where you can support Matthew in the show notes or the podcast description.

Jenn: 00:32:23

Yeah. And please, in the comments, tell us who's your favorite dog holiday and who's your favorite wired up. We'd like to hear from you.

Scott: 00:32:32

All right, Jen. So that was. That was a blast.

I really enjoyed our conversation on that because there were a couple things that I actually wasn't aware of when it came to Doc Holliday and some of the colorful characters that he interacted with and kind of how long he lived with tuberculosis and all that.

Matthew: 00:32:49

His.

Scott: 00:32:49

His upbringing, it was really interesting.

Jenn: 00:32:51

Yeah, he was kind of like the perfect storm of an American west character. Because he lived each life, because he lived each day like it was his last, he really could push the envelope.

And because he did that, he did move into this legend status of his life.

And I like how Matthew kind of pulled in the fountain of youth with it, like he's searching to save his life, and it's also driving his ambition in life. So I love that because if you know anything about Doc Holliday, he did live with a. An illness that was going to end his life.

And I thought that was great.

Scott: 00:33:27

Yeah. And I love how he said that. That Doc Holliday, being a betting man, would probably not have bet on the Jets. You know, I'm sorry, Jets fans. If you're.

If you're a Jets fan out there, he probably would have bet on the Chiefs.

And that just kind of goes to the research that Matthew did and kind of getting inside of his head and learning all that stuff and who he interacted with and how he may or may not have wanted to been perceived. So it's just a super fun interview. If you are listeners or you are watchers are interested in buying this book, we'll put a link down below.

I'll flash it up here on the screen and you guys can support the author.

Jenn: 00:34:02

Yeah, the COVID art is super cool too. So even if you just want to display the book in your house, it looks like a cool gunslinger on the.

Scott: 00:34:09

On the COVID All right, thank you. This has been a Walk with History production. Talk with History is created and hosted by me, Scott Benny. Episode researched by Jennifer Benny.

Check out the show notes for links and references mentioned in this episode. Talk with History is supported by our fans@thehistoryroadtrip.com our eternal thanks go out to those providing funding to help keep us going.

Thank you to Doug McDelivery, Larry Myers, Patrick Benny, and Gale Cooper.