Episode 141
Fort Pillow: Battle or Massacre?
🎙️
Scott and Jenn dive into the Battle of Fort Pillow, a moment in the Civil War that's as hotly debated as pineapple on pizza. Was it a fierce battle or a brutal massacre? Well, grab your popcorn because we’re unpacking the juicy details! Picture this: Union troops, including many African American soldiers, holding the fort against Nathan Bedford Forrest and his Confederate cavalry.
As the dust settles after the chaos, we see a stark contrast in casualties, raising eyebrows and stirring up some serious controversy. We’re here to chat about the significance of this event, how it still echoes in discussions today, and why history isn’t just black and white—it's a colorful mess of perspectives. So, sit back, relax, and let’s talk about Fort Pillow!
📍 Fort Pillow Center and Trail Head
🎙️ Bomber Boys: WW2 Jacket Art podcast
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Transcript
And in this event that we're going to talk about the battle of Fort Pillow or the massacre Port, Fort Pillow, how you want to remember it.
Speaker A:The Union is occupying the fort at the time and it's being attacked by the Confederacy.
Speaker A:Nathan Bedford Forrest is a Tennessee and he ends up in Memphis as a slave trader.
Speaker A:And I use the term human trafficker.
Speaker A:So when does the fog of war turn into a massacre?
Speaker A:Remember Fort Pillow, they would say those exact words.
Speaker B:Welcome to Talk with History.
Speaker B:I'm your host Scott, here with my wife and historian Jen.
Speaker A:Hello.
Speaker B:On this podcast we give you insights to our history Inspired World Travels YouTube channel Journey and examine history through deeper conversations with the curious, the explorers and the history lovers out there.
Speaker B:Now, Jim, before we start into our topic today, I have some kind of long overdue things I've been wanting to cover.
Speaker B:We got some emails from listeners, listeners that I had had some really cool stories.
Speaker B:So I want to kind of tell those to the audience.
Speaker B:One of them actually both emails we recently got was in response to our bomber boys jacket interview.
Speaker B:That was with John Slimp, the photographer who had kind of like an eight year project putting together this beautiful kind of photo book.
Speaker B:But it's also kind of really like an art piece.
Speaker B:It's just a beautiful book.
Speaker B:Now both of these were in response to that podcast episode.
Speaker B:So I wanted to read the first email from Doug, our friend Doug McDelivery.
Speaker B:The subject of the email was a raincoat that was treated respectfully for 47 years.
Speaker B:So he says, Scott and Jen, I love the episode about the World War II bomber flight jackets.
Speaker B:I have to look up the author and purchase the book.
Speaker B:Highly recommend it.
Speaker B:He was in the third Armored Division.
Speaker B:Like me, he was north of Frankfurt and I was to the west in Hanau in the division artillery.
Speaker B:So my story is poignant but not as dramatic as the leather bomber jackets.
Speaker B:Having said that, I still think it speaks volumes about combat experiences and kindness.
Speaker B: In: Speaker B:I was stationed in Bamberg, north of Nuremberg.
Speaker B:At the time, I was the Ops officer or S3 in a multiple launch rocket system battalion.
Speaker B:One of my collateral duties was representative to the German American Friendship Club.
Speaker B:One evening during dinner, an older German man told me the story of how he surrendered to the US army and worked for the army immediately following in the surrender.
Speaker B:As the war was winding down, he was on the Eastern front fighting the Russians.
Speaker B:He and his unit were retreating westward in hopes of surrendering to the Americans or Brits.
Speaker B:They were out of ammunition, fuel and supplies.
Speaker B:So they marched west as fast as they could.
Speaker B:He arrived in the Bamberg area and surrendered to the US Army.
Speaker B:The army gave them food, medical care, and shelter.
Speaker B:The soldier had a key skill.
Speaker B:He spoke English and German.
Speaker B:So as a US army sergeant asked him if he would like to work at the gate, helping them talk with the locals, he said yes.
Speaker B:They put him on the front gate, fed him, gave him coffee, and one day, when it started raining, a raincoat.
Speaker B:The German told me that the raincoat was the best one he ever wore.
Speaker B:It was long oliver olive drab green.
Speaker B:It was a heavy combination of cloth and rubber with metal clasps, kind of like the New England fishermen wear on lobster boats.
Speaker B:When his watch was over, he took off the coat and was going to give it back to the sergeant of the guard.
Speaker B:The sergeant told him to keep it as a way of thanking him.
Speaker B:The man cherished the raincoat.
Speaker B:After dinner, he.
Speaker B:He asked me to stop at his car.
Speaker B:In the trunk, he had the old raincoat carefully folded in a protective container.
Speaker B:He asked me if it was possible to trade the old raincoat in for a new one.
Speaker B:I told him he would not want any of the newer raincoats, since they were nowhere near the quality of the one he had.
Speaker B:I told the man I was honored to hear his story and to see his beautifully preserved coat.
Speaker B:I realize this is not as heroic as the Bomber Jack stories, but it demonstrated for me the respect that German soldiers and the people had for the Americans.
Speaker B:Plus, my experience was almost 50 years after the war, and to wrap it up, it happened during a German American Friendship Club dinner.
Speaker B:Thank you, Doug.
Speaker B:So I just thought that was so poignant that there's so much that happened immediately after the war.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Soldiers.
Speaker B:You kind of see it in Band of Brothers when that.
Speaker B:That last scene.
Speaker A:Yes, Right.
Speaker B:When the German general is talking to his soldiers and he says that we are the Band of Brothers.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:There's.
Speaker B:It provides so much more context, and I really loved Doug's story.
Speaker B:So, Doug, thank you so much for sending that in.
Speaker B:We love hearing stories like that, especially from fellow veterans who've had experiences like this.
Speaker B:The other email is from Michael Weber.
Speaker B:Now, he actually emailed in because he saw our podcast on the bomber jackets.
Speaker B:He owns one of the jackets that John photographed.
Speaker B:So he wrote in, he said, hello.
Speaker B:I just saw the segment you did with John.
Speaker B:I happen to have one of the jackets he put in the book.
Speaker B:You had asked about directions some take with these jackets.
Speaker B:In my case, it was to learn more about the individual that did mine.
Speaker B:His name was Harry Halls, 401st Bomb Group, 8th Air Force, England.
Speaker B:He was an armor for the unit.
Speaker B:He had some great skills.
Speaker B:It helped subsidize his army pay flyers made substantially more than the ground crews.
Speaker B:He was very prolific and created a number of these iconic jackets of the group.
Speaker B:After the war, he opened a shop and went into the sculpture in Connecticut.
Speaker B:He remained there till he passed the jacket I have.
Speaker B:I'll put some pictures up.
Speaker B:Is Diabolic, Diabolical angel done for the gunner on base is a true piece of art.
Speaker B:It's beautiful.
Speaker B:If you guys are watching this video, I'll put pictures up.
Speaker B:The pictures that he sent, he said we could share them.
Speaker B:If you're listening, I encourage you to kind of come check them out or go over to the History road Trip and I'll.
Speaker B:I'll do a little post over there at the history road trip dot com.
Speaker B:Jeff Schrader, whom John mentioned, values the jacket at $20,000.
Speaker B:I'm including some photo attachments.
Speaker B:I encourage you to look up the jackets of the 401st.
Speaker B:Great work.
Speaker B:You guys.
Speaker B:Keep doing what you're doing to keep history alive.
Speaker B:Michael Weber.
Speaker B:So, Michael, thank you so much for sharing that with us.
Speaker B:That was just really cool to see someone reach out after that episode and say, hey, here's one of the jackets that was photographed.
Speaker B:And here's what I learned about the man who did the art, which is what we love hearing.
Speaker A:It is a beautiful jacket.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's gorgeous.
Speaker B:And again, if you're watching the video, you can see pictures of it right now.
Speaker B:And lastly, I want to shout out a new member over@thehistoryroadtrip.com so this is a shout out to a new member over there, Gail Cooper.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:She's showing her support for history, travel and all things adventurous over atthehistory roadtrip.com and you're going to start hearing her name at as part of the credits now.
Speaker B:So if you're interested in supporting the podcast or in supporting our YouTube channel, if you've come from there, the history road trip.com is like a newsletter.
Speaker B:We try to provide some resources, go a little bit deeper into some of these things, and we'll put things over there that we don't normally put on the podcast or we don't put on the main YouTube channel.
Speaker B:So it's another place to kind of get to know us a little bit better.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it really does support the channel.
Speaker A:Gas money, tickets to these museums, tickets into certain historical locations.
Speaker A:All of that comes out of pocket for us.
Speaker A:So anything that we receive from you guys, it goes directly back into making content and making these videos for you.
Speaker A:So thank you so much.
Speaker A:We truly appreciate all the support.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So it was long overdue to talk about those emails and stories and the new member, so I'm glad I finally got to get it in.
Speaker B:We've got some exciting new projects coming up for people to.
Speaker B:To hear about for our audience, so stay tuned for that over the coming weeks.
Speaker B:And we'll probably give some previews to members only over atthehistory roadtrip.com for some of the things that we're working on, some things that I'm particularly excited about.
Speaker B:So there we were beneath the burning sky Both had reason.
Speaker B:All right, Jen, Fort Pillow.
Speaker B:This was a video that we did not expect to have the response that.
Speaker B:That, that it did.
Speaker B:It was interesting to say the least.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's a word for it.
Speaker A:So Fort Pillow is just a fort that's close to where we live now.
Speaker A:And we thought it would be great to take the kids out there.
Speaker A:It's a state park, and if you make it out there, it's has Boy Scout camps and hiking trails and camp sites, and people go out there to picnic.
Speaker A:People go out there to hike.
Speaker A:And so we thought this would be great to tell this story of the Civil War and its place in American history.
Speaker A:It is controversial still today, and so we thought we'll just tell that story.
Speaker A:Why is it controversial?
Speaker A:Why?
Speaker A:What.
Speaker A:What is the memory of Fort Pillow and how is that memory conjuring up two different side of the story?
Speaker A:And so when we went out there and we told that story, it did bring out that controversy.
Speaker B:Yeah, so.
Speaker B:So there was definitely.
Speaker B:There was even some controversy around the battle at the time.
Speaker B:And we're going to get into that.
Speaker B:And I think that's kind of that controversy that started then because there is many primary source accounts of survivors on both sides of this.
Speaker B:This battle.
Speaker B:And so those accounts, it kind of.
Speaker B:I guess it kind of depends on which side you lean and who you believe a little more based on the comments in the YouTube video.
Speaker B:And I encourage you to go watch the video because it actually turned out really well.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It was.
Speaker B:It's a fun place to visit.
Speaker B:But why don't you give us a little bit of the kind of context and what Fort Pillow was.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker A:So this is 40 miles north of Memphis on the Mississippi river.
Speaker A:And it was a fort built along the Mississippi river by the Confederates, by General Pillow of the Confederacy.
Speaker A:So it's named for him.
Speaker A:And it's there to fortify and protect the Mississippi.
Speaker A:For the Confederate army during the Civil War, it was there to protect their interests.
Speaker A:You know, when war is first declared by the Civil War, no one has ventured into each other's territories yet.
Speaker A:And even though Tennessee is the last state to secede from the Union, that area is southern, is Confederate.
Speaker A: nd so they built this fort in: Speaker A:So that's kind of what, how it starts.
Speaker A:It's high on a bluff.
Speaker A:The Mississippi has since changed course, but you can see where it once was right in front of where this fort is.
Speaker A:And I, I kind of talk about it.
Speaker A:It's, it's arranged in three lines of entrenchments in a semicircle and they have a parapet, like 4 foot tall parapet and a ditch in front of it.
Speaker A:And that parapet makes it difficult to defend because you have to climb up on it and it really makes you susceptible to enemy fire.
Speaker B:Yeah, so.
Speaker B:So the fort itself was a little bit likened to Vicksburg.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because of the strategic nature of where it was on the Mississippi at the time.
Speaker B:Now I think the Mississippi has shifted a little bit over the years and we show that a little bit in the video.
Speaker B:But the, that was kind of the strategic nature of it.
Speaker B:And it really wasn't as much of like a trade spot as Vicksburg was or anything like that.
Speaker B:I don't think there was any major railroads that were passing directly through there like in Vicksburg.
Speaker B:But strategically on the Mississippi, that's why they had built a fort there and they had decided to kind of really dig in and try to protect that, that particular fort.
Speaker A:They did.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:But what happens is it's, it's abandoned by the Confederates.
Speaker A:They evacuate it in June of the same year because with the Union coming in, they feel like they're going to be cut off from the rest of the Confederate Army.
Speaker A:Mississippi has taken pretty, I mean, Mississippi Memphis is taken pretty early.
Speaker A:And since this is north of Memphis, they feel like they're going to cut themselves off from the rest of the Confederacy.
Speaker A:So they evacuate fort pillow.
Speaker A:On June 4 and June 6, the union comes and takes it.
Speaker A:So what's interesting about Fort Pillow is it's it.
Speaker A:Both sides use it, both sides utilize it.
Speaker A:And in this event that we're going to talk about the battle of Fort Pillow or the massacre of Port Fort Pillow, how you want to remember it, it happens that the Union is occupying the fort at the time and it's being attacked by the Confederacy.
Speaker A:So even though it's a Confederate built fort and was used by the Confederacy initially for the Civil War, it's, it's abandoned pretty early on and the Union has taken control of it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So again, we, we drove out there.
Speaker B:It took us, I think it's kind of 40 miles as the crow flies, but it took us a good hour and a half to kind of get out there.
Speaker B:It's, it's, there's not a lot that's close to it.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And that's, that's the other thing.
Speaker B:There's no major city.
Speaker B:It's really close by.
Speaker B:There are some other smaller cities that we drove through.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean it's, it's north of Memphis.
Speaker A:There's nothing quite out there.
Speaker A:You would know Henning, Tennessee if you are a historian, because Henning is where Alex Haley is from.
Speaker A:And Henning is where the porch is, where Alex Haley would hear his family talk about his family stories.
Speaker A:And he writes roots based on those stories that he heard on that porch.
Speaker A:So if you know any location that's close by this, it's Henning, Tennessee.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so got up there and it's actually pretty good little spot to go visit.
Speaker B:You know, I'd bring a lunch if you're gonna go, but we got the kids up there and it's a great place to kind of walk around outside.
Speaker B:And actually Fort Pillow, the park has a lot of like, it's actually in the area.
Speaker B:It's probably more visited because of the outdoor activities.
Speaker B:There's boy Scouts.
Speaker B:We had people commenting on the video saying, hey, I've never really been to the fort, but I've hiked all through there and I camp out there all the time.
Speaker B:And so the, the state has done a good job with that area of kind of keeping that area alive through multiple avenues, which I thought was really neat.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean it's well groomed.
Speaker A:It's well groomed.
Speaker A:It has water sports, it has hiking sports.
Speaker A:It has definitely campgrounds.
Speaker A:I could see hiking trails and things along that nature.
Speaker A:If you go to Fort Pillow and drive in, I mean it's a ways before you even get to the interpretive center.
Speaker A:As you drive to the interpretive center, you'll see the campsites, you'll see the hiking trails, you'll see the lake and all the kayaks out there.
Speaker A:So you can tell that they use this recreationally.
Speaker A:And it's a very well tended to state park.
Speaker A:Then you'll drive to the end of the road Basically, to the interpretive center.
Speaker A:And this interpretive center houses some of the artifacts and materials from this battle of Fort Pillow.
Speaker A:And so they tell the story of Fort Pillow.
Speaker A:And if you want to go in there just to get an idea of what's happening, who is here at the time and what's going on, they have a movie in there as well.
Speaker A:That's a good location to go inside and kind of get your bearings.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Now, one of.
Speaker B:I think the reasons that this battle is so controversial is one of the big names that was leading on the Confederate side, and that is Nathan Bedford Forrest.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:So he's our first video.
Speaker A:If you're a friend of Walk With History, you know, he's our first video on Walk With History because we had just moved to Memphis, and at the time, the Confederate statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest was still standing in downtown Memphis, and that was a controversial statue at the time, and we had no idea who he was.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so we're like, who the heck is this guy?
Speaker B:Kind of knew him from Forrest Gump.
Speaker A:Kind of knew.
Speaker A:If you're like, oh, yeah, I've heard that name Forest from the movie.
Speaker A:Is that the same person?
Speaker A:And if you miss that blink moment in the movie where he says he's named after Nathan Bedford Forrest, like, I didn't even remember that he was named for him.
Speaker A:So Nathan Bedford Forest is a Tennessean.
Speaker A:He ends up in Memphis as a slave trader.
Speaker A:And I use the term human trafficker.
Speaker A:And people get very upset about me using that term because they say I'm taking.
Speaker A:I'm doing present.
Speaker A:Presentism, which is what historians come under fire for doing.
Speaker A:I try not to do that.
Speaker A:Taking the.
Speaker A:The terms of the present tense and the values of the present time and impose them on the past.
Speaker A:So that's not what I'm doing when I use the term human trafficking.
Speaker A:What I' doing is I'm trying to relay a more accurate term for what is going on.
Speaker A:And the way I kind of explain that is, if you ever heard soldiers heart in war, in the Civil War, someone said he had soldier's heart, you'd be like, well, what is that?
Speaker A:It's ptsd.
Speaker A:So you're like, oh, I understand now.
Speaker A:I'm not presentism.
Speaker A:Soldier's heart.
Speaker A:I'm not telling you what I'm like, making soldiers heart a more present term.
Speaker A:I'm giving you an understanding of what it is, because you would not understand what that was today, but you understand what it is in their time with what we know about it today.
Speaker A:And so the same thing with human trafficking.
Speaker A:The reason why I don't like slave trade is because it.
Speaker A:It talks about a commodity as a transfer of commodities, and humans aren't a commodity.
Speaker A:And so even though slavery is as old as time and slavery has been done by every group of people around the.
Speaker A:I just like the word human trafficking because it's.
Speaker A:It sets the term up more better than what Nathan Bedford Forest was doing.
Speaker A:But he was a slave trader in Memphis, and that is a very lucrative business pre Civil War.
Speaker A:And so he made a lot of money.
Speaker A:And so people get upset when I start to talk about this with Nathan Bedford Forest.
Speaker A:You know, he comes into the military as a private.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:He enlists, but within three months, he's promoted to a lieutenant colonel because he buys his commission.
Speaker A:And people don't like that term, but that was done by every military at the time.
Speaker A:It's not just a confederate thing.
Speaker A:Every military, the British, the French, you.
Speaker A:If you have the means to outfit a group of men with ammunition, horses, with saddles, with supplies, you become the leader of those men.
Speaker A:And that's what Nathan Bedford Forrest did.
Speaker A:He was able to outfit his calv with his funds, with his means, and he's promoted from private to lieutenant colonel in three months.
Speaker A:People like to say he rose through the ranks or he.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:And I made the joke too.
Speaker B:And I don't remember if I commented back to someone because we had a lot of comments on this video, but I said, you know, maybe it was just you.
Speaker B:As he essentially was, like, every Monday he was promoted to the next rank.
Speaker B:Like, oh, it's Monday.
Speaker B:Time to wrote, you know, Nate, Nate, come over here.
Speaker B:You're the next rank.
Speaker B:And actually probably would have to been twice a week, you know, to go all the way through the enlisted up to officer ranks.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And that.
Speaker A:That didn't happen.
Speaker A:He went straight from private to lieutenant colonel.
Speaker A:He buys his commission.
Speaker A:Once the people, the higher ups, the decision makers, think of Jefferson Davis and the governor of Tennessee, realize who he is and how much money and means he has, and they need that in the Confederate army at the time.
Speaker A:He gets a commission and he gets a cavalry.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And part of it is too, is you think of.
Speaker B:Of the times back then, not everybody was going through West Point, you know, if it even, you know, depending on what stage of war we were in and whether or not it existed.
Speaker B:But somebody like that, who was a businessman, regardless of the business, had management experience, and that's what they were looking for.
Speaker B:They were looking for somebody who could could manage a large group of people and understand logistics and understand the business of the Army.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so that's what they were looking for.
Speaker B:And that's kind of why some of these commissions were quote unquote bought, is because these men, and it was all men at the time, were landowners, were business owners, were whatever they were.
Speaker B:And that's kind of how they had some experience.
Speaker B:Not the experience you would have in the army if you had gone to West Point or if you had gone to, you know, any sort of military.
Speaker B:Military training.
Speaker B:But it's more than the average Joe.
Speaker B:And when they're just looking for bodies at the time, that's what they had.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I didn't even know these con.
Speaker A:This.
Speaker A:These terms.
Speaker A:And this history was going to be so controversial, but this is the accurate history of Nathan Bedford Forrest.
Speaker A:Now what people think or what I think happens and people get, you know, upset about is I think they feel like it undermines his abilities as a cavalry leader.
Speaker B:He was pretty lauded as a.
Speaker B:As a military leader.
Speaker A:And I'm not trying to do that.
Speaker A:What I'm trying to do is tell you how he got to the position he was in.
Speaker A:He does have no formal military experience.
Speaker A:He is able to fund his calvary and that is how he's commissioned as an officer in the Confederate States.
Speaker B:So what was.
Speaker B:What was his role at Fort Pillow?
Speaker B:He.
Speaker B:Was he leading the troops initially or was that did.
Speaker B:Was he the one who stepped up later?
Speaker B:Or am I kind of getting the Union and Confederacy leadership?
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So in it, basically this is.
Speaker A: You got to think of March of: Speaker A:This is what this whole start.
Speaker A: It starts about March: Speaker A:Gettysburg is.
Speaker A:Happens in 63.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And this turns the tides of the Civil War.
Speaker A:So the battle's being brought more Southern.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because Gettysburg is as far north as the south ever gets.
Speaker A:And then they're essentially starting to be pushed back into the south to fight.
Speaker A:And you're going to get Grant having some big successes during that time in 64.
Speaker A:And this, I would say is the South's final charge.
Speaker A:Yeah, right.
Speaker A:And Bedford Forest is able to get a Calvary group of about 7,000Calvary troopers to kind of just make this run.
Speaker A:And they're trying to make this this month long Calvary run into West Tennessee and Kentucky.
Speaker A:And it's for a bunch of different things.
Speaker A:Morale.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's to get people behind them and it's to hit these smaller forts they also need supplies for.
Speaker A:Pillow is really strategically hit for the supplies for the river.
Speaker A:And so that's kind of what's happening here is this is kind of a pushback to what's been happening since 63 and Gettysburg and the Union marching into the south to take the South.
Speaker A:This is the Confederates kind of push back at this moment.
Speaker A:So mid March they start this.
Speaker A:Bedford Forest launches this month long Calvary raid to west Tennessee and Kentucky.
Speaker A:And so the objectives are to capture prisoners for prisoner trade.
Speaker A:The it is to get supplies.
Speaker A:It's to, it's just I, I would think it's also like to build morale and to give some victories to the, to the South.
Speaker B:And if I remember right, by the time he got to Fort Pillow he had about two, maybe three times the amount of troops than that were there actually like holding the fort.
Speaker A:So Fort Pillow happens about a month later.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A: ,: Speaker A:Now there's conflicting numbers.
Speaker A: athabed for Forest either has: Speaker A:Not quite sure.
Speaker A:They said they peeled off some to go fight a different air in a different area.
Speaker A:But they know for sure four pillow only had 600 men.
Speaker A:So that's where you're going to hear the terms two to one or three to one.
Speaker A:You're not quite sure.
Speaker A:But know that they definitely are outnumbered the men at Four Pillow.
Speaker A:And so what happens at Four Pillow is it's being reinforced at the time by a lot of African American or black colored troops.
Speaker A:And that is still a very radical thing even for the Union.
Speaker A: ion Proclamation comes out in: Speaker A:And so much so that the Confederacy has kind of answered this Emancipation Proclamation with their own law that if they, they capture any black soldiers, they're going to be sent back to enslavement.
Speaker A:They're going to capture them whether or not they're free men of the north or not.
Speaker A:It doesn't matter to them if they're captured by the Confederacy.
Speaker A:They're going back into their law and their law system into enslavement.
Speaker A:And so once that Emancipation Proclamation comes out, the Confederacy comes out with that very clear understanding of what will happen if you're captured fighting for the north and you're, if you're a black soldier.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So Nathan Bever Forest, his troops get up there and they essentially start making the, the charge at Fort Pillow.
Speaker A:So you have to think there's.
Speaker A:I want you to understand that Forest has his 1st Division Cavalry Corps for Pillow has the 6 u.
Speaker A:S.
Speaker A:Artillery of color troops.
Speaker A:You have Bradford's battalion, this Tennessee cavalry of the 13th Tennessee Calvary.
Speaker A:And what I make clear in the video is Tennessee Calvary.
Speaker A:What are you talking about?
Speaker A:Tennessee is a southern state.
Speaker A:Well, there are some people from Tennessee who fight for the Union and you're going to see this a lot in these border state areas.
Speaker A:Even when we went to Vicksburg there's a statue for Missouri, the brother to brother statue because so many people from Missouri were half Union and half Confederacy.
Speaker A:And so that happens in Tennessee as well.
Speaker A:So you have these group of the 13th Tennessee Battalion who are white troops fighting alongside the 6th US artillery which is colored troops.
Speaker A:And you have to understand that's still radical even for them doing that.
Speaker A:So it's a, it's still a very new concept.
Speaker A: ,: Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Now if you visit there you actually can make it up to where the kind of recreated fort is.
Speaker B:It's a little bit of a hike depending on which way you go and, and I think we have a link and I'll put a link in the show notes to kind of where the kind of the more hiking ish type trail is.
Speaker B:Trailhead is that'll get you a little closer.
Speaker B:But we got up there, it was really neat to kind of see, you know where the cannons would have been positioned and what the fort would have looked like and you, you definitely can't see you're up on this bluff.
Speaker B:So what happens over the course of the battle.
Speaker A:So I, I also want to stress too if you leave that interpretive center, it's like a what a two mile.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Hike.
Speaker B:It's a solid hike.
Speaker A:So I want people to know you can hike it.
Speaker A:It's very well groomed, it's very easy hike.
Speaker A:It wasn't.
Speaker A:There's some steps that you can tell they have cut in steps.
Speaker A:Some eagle troops, scouts have done their eagle.
Speaker A:They, you can tell they've earned it by cutting in the steps.
Speaker A:But it's not a, a difficult hike.
Speaker A:But once you get out there, it's recreated almost perfectly.
Speaker B:Cool.
Speaker A:It's really cool.
Speaker A:It's there for you.
Speaker A:It is pretty awesome.
Speaker A:So in the morning of April 12, about 10am Forest will arrive at Fort Pillow and they surround the fort pretty easily.
Speaker A:And by 11 o'clock they've already captured rows of barracks.
Speaker A:They're kind of out front of the fort and so they're kind of like letting them know that they're here.
Speaker A:There's the two to one to you.
Speaker A:There's three to one to you.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And they kind of, at 3:30, offer them a demand for surrender.
Speaker A:And what happens is the man in charge of all of them, Booth, is killed early by a sniper.
Speaker A:So Forrest has put these men up in the trees, and like I told you, this parapet is pretty high.
Speaker A:And so Booth, who's the commander, has been killed pretty early by a sniper.
Speaker A:The next in charge is Bradford.
Speaker A:And Bradford really doesn't want force to know that their commander has been killed.
Speaker A:He's like.
Speaker A:And he's not very.
Speaker A:He's.
Speaker A:He wasn't ready for all of this.
Speaker A:Plus, there is a gunboat there.
Speaker A:So the Union had a gunboat kind of.
Speaker A:Again, they're right along the Mississippi river, right?
Speaker A:And there's a gunboat behind them.
Speaker A:It's called the new Era.
Speaker A:And so the Union also feels like they have that to their advantage and doesn't want the Confederacy to know that it's there.
Speaker A:Now Nathan Bedford Forrest asks them for the surrender.
Speaker A:They ask for time.
Speaker A:And Forest knows the gunboats there.
Speaker A:So when he thinks they're asking for time, he's like, oh, they're asking to be fortified by this gunboat.
Speaker A:They're asking for troops.
Speaker B:Yeah, they're asking for backup.
Speaker A:They're asking for backup.
Speaker A:So he says 20 minutes.
Speaker A:No, you get 20 minutes.
Speaker A:So in that time, Bradford doesn't.
Speaker A:He doesn't surrender.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And it expires.
Speaker A:And so once that 20 minutes expires, he.
Speaker A:And Bradford says he will not surrender.
Speaker A:He fires the bugle charge.
Speaker A:So the essential calvary bugle charge.
Speaker A:And so this is where you get the historian quarterbacks people who wanted to say, what is this?
Speaker A:What happens now?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:This is the whole controversy of everything.
Speaker A:What happens now?
Speaker A:Essentially, this is war.
Speaker A:Essentially, this is a battle.
Speaker A:Essentially, this is men fighting scared for their lives.
Speaker A:So when does the fog of war turn into a massacre?
Speaker B:Yeah, so.
Speaker B:So the.
Speaker B:The short version is the Confederates take over the fort.
Speaker B:They.
Speaker B:They kind of kill, massacre.
Speaker B:I mean, they kill a whole bunch of the.
Speaker B:The Union soldiers after all of that.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I'm kind of compressing things here.
Speaker B:They win, they take it over.
Speaker B:They kill a whole bunch of the Union troops.
Speaker B:After all of that, there's a lot of accounts, firsthand accounts, that because there was testimony in Congress much, I think, a couple years later, or actually not that much later, because there were survivors on both sides that.
Speaker B:That did escape, and essentially there's test, you know, testimony saying, hey, the union troops weren't waving the white flag, so we continued to fight just like you were going to fight.
Speaker B:Because it looked like they were going to kill me.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I killed the other guy, so he didn't kill me.
Speaker B:We talk about that, you know, in combat all the time.
Speaker B:On the union side, there was reports or accounts that said I tried to surrender or men tried to surrender.
Speaker B:And you continued to kill them.
Speaker B:You did not allow them to surrender.
Speaker B:You massacred them.
Speaker B:There's further accounts that said black soldiers were specifically targeted, pulled out of the river as they were trying to run away and executed.
Speaker A:Yes, they.
Speaker A:There's firsthand primary Source testimony from Lieutenant Daniel Van Horn.
Speaker A:He's the commander of the 6th Colored Troop Cavalry and he has, he's white, but he gives testimony of watching his men unarmed, kneeling in front of confederate soldiers, asking for mercy, surrendering and being shot point blank on their knees.
Speaker A:So the numbers speak for themselves.
Speaker A:Yeah, right.
Speaker A:You got 600 troops at Four Pillow.
Speaker A:It's evenly African american and it's, it's evenly Black and white.
Speaker A:300.
Speaker B:300 on the union side.
Speaker A:On the, on the union side.
Speaker A:Yet you're going to have 164 black men killed to 64 white men, and the Confederates lose 14.
Speaker A:So that's nothing.
Speaker A:So you got two times more or 20% more of, of black men to two white men that are almost three times more.
Speaker A:Three times more.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Three times more killed.
Speaker A:Is that a massacre?
Speaker A:Were they singled out?
Speaker A:You know, we have so much.
Speaker A:The racial tension at the time is huge.
Speaker A:This is what the civil war ultimately becomes about.
Speaker A:And we know that the confederacy, the south has put out, if you're captured, you're going to go back to enslavement.
Speaker A:So what would that mean to confederate soldier?
Speaker A:Either way, they, they're not going to be bargained for.
Speaker A:Right, right.
Speaker A:They're not really that bargaining chip that forrest was looking for for u.
Speaker A:S.
Speaker A:Prisoners.
Speaker A:Like, this is not quite what the power that they would have in, in a war situation.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So you could see why maybe they were just just annihilate.
Speaker A:Just, just, just killed.
Speaker B:Well, and even the leadership on, on the confederate side, when they were writing their official reports, you know, kind of conflicted against what the union soldier survivors said.
Speaker B:And on the confederate side, they were saying, hey, they weren't surrendering.
Speaker B:And you know, they weren't.
Speaker B:They were talking about, like, how they were behaving and stuff like that.
Speaker B:And, and so it's kind of a.
Speaker B:He said he Said type situation on each side.
Speaker B:But again, to your point, the numbers speak for themselves.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's odd, right.
Speaker B:And you could draw certain conclusions based on the fact that there was almost three times more black soldiers killed than there were white soldiers on the Union side.
Speaker A:But so.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And that's where you get some controversy online.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Is it a massacre?
Speaker A:Is it a battle?
Speaker A:It is war.
Speaker A:They didn't surrender.
Speaker A:They didn't surrender.
Speaker A:So what are you to do in that situation?
Speaker A:Does it look like Forest is gonna lose?
Speaker A:Not really.
Speaker A:So could he have just taken them prisoner?
Speaker A:Probably.
Speaker A:Did the gunboat ever fire?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:So was it, I think Bradford, he like, ran away.
Speaker A:Bradford actually ran away.
Speaker A:So that was kind of another issue is like there was no surrender because their commanding officer is swimming across the Mississippi.
Speaker A:Which someone thought that was actually funny that I said Bradford was swimming across the Mississippi.
Speaker A:And I said, well, he didn't walk across.
Speaker B:Yeah, he didn't run away.
Speaker B:He didn't walk across the Mississippi.
Speaker A:So he gets away.
Speaker A:So when your commanding officer isn't there to.
Speaker A:To tell you to surrender, it's difficult for.
Speaker A:And this is still like these, these elements of war where things are still pretty.
Speaker A:They have to be kind of official and they, they really follow these official rules.
Speaker A:And that's the same thing with taking prisoners and things like that.
Speaker A:But what happens Again, the 164 black troops that are killed, the 64 white troops that are killed, they're buried in that pit right in front of the fort.
Speaker A:And I show you that in the video afterwards, Lincoln, they decide, what do we do with this?
Speaker A:And this is where you're going to get these testimonies that come in and you're going to get.
Speaker A:Get these men who come to Congress and write in their letters or they.
Speaker A:They testify in front of Congress.
Speaker A:And this is what becomes the rallying cry, which somebody asked me, you know, actually was it a rally cry for the color troops?
Speaker A:Yes, it was.
Speaker A:There is testimony of other battles where colored troops would say, remember Fort Pillow?
Speaker A:They would say those exact words.
Speaker A:And what happens is Van Dorn, he will survive, gives this testimony that it was truly miraculous that we held that fort for one hour.
Speaker A:To the colored troops is due the successful holding out until 4pm the men were constantly at their posts.
Speaker A:And in fact, through the whole engagement showed valor not expected from troops less than veterans, white or black.
Speaker A:And because he gives those that kind of testimony, the whole north starts to take notice that these African American black troops are fighting for their freedom.
Speaker A:And they are so in this fight that they are willing to die.
Speaker A:They're willing to stand up host, and not back down when it all looks lost.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And essentially it was.
Speaker A:They held their ground.
Speaker A:They did not run away.
Speaker A:And that is what becomes the rallying cry for the colored troops.
Speaker A:This also is going to bring up a lot of enlistments for colored troops.
Speaker A:They're going to join the military, and it's going to make the north start to say this war is about more than just keeping the Union together.
Speaker A:It's about freeing these people who have been in bondage for so long.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And one of the things that I really appreciated about this, this video is there were so many firsthand primary source accounts that you can go look up online.
Speaker B:Like, I mean, when you're reading that, you're reading that from a transcription of that testimony.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So you were.
Speaker B:You were reading the words from a primary source.
Speaker B:So that was really neat when we made this video, because you can't argue with fact.
Speaker B:You can argue your interpretation, but you can't argue fact.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So people will have a different opinion on a three Bedford force.
Speaker B:I mean, people got a lot of opinions on him.
Speaker B:You can have an opinion on.
Speaker B:Oh, was this really a rallying cry or was this as big a deal as you're making it out to be?
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:But there's people who testified that during battles afterwards, they said, remember Fort Pillow?
Speaker B:And that's.
Speaker B:You can't dispute that.
Speaker B:So this was kind of really interesting to be able to do.
Speaker B:And then the comments and the feedback that we got from the video was.
Speaker B:Was really, really interesting.
Speaker B:So I enjoyed making this video from that perspective.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, this really.
Speaker A:When we talk about history, a lot of times we're talking about memory and how the past is remembered.
Speaker A:And Fort Pillow is one of those interesting battles and how it's remembered, because despite how ferocious this attack was, this was a very little significance to the Confederate Army.
Speaker A:Nathan Bedford Forrest will abandon it within hours of occur.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Vicksburg is way more important.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:They're just looking for some supplies and they're out.
Speaker A:So as far as, like, strategically, what this battle was to the war in general is null.
Speaker A:But what it is in memory for what it was morally as a symbol.
Speaker B:Really, to the Union.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Horrors of war, dehumanization, racial equality.
Speaker A:Like, how is history remembered?
Speaker A:How is history primary sourced?
Speaker A:That's the significance of this battle and the fact that you can go there today and walk in those exact same footsteps and be there and see what they saw.
Speaker A:It is an amazing part of American history, so much so that we get to discuss it and talk about it today.
Speaker A:And it's one of those horrors of war that that's why the argument is so difficult to make.
Speaker A:When does a battle become a massacre?
Speaker A:When does fighting take a turn ethically to something more?
Speaker A:And is war even ethical in some instances like these are questions that we still ponder today.
Speaker A:And that's why Fort Pillow is still so significant.
Speaker A:And I'm happy we were able to do this video.
Speaker A:I'm happy it raised a bunch of these questions.
Speaker A:I hope you had some questions about it as well.
Speaker A:Again, you learn more about these umbrella people of history and the amazing feats that they did.
Speaker A:And to remember those men who stood their ground and didn't back down.
Speaker A:I think it's a real testimony to how brave they were at the time.
Speaker B:Yeah, again, it was.
Speaker B:It was fun.
Speaker B:I'll leave links to both the newsletter and the audio and video versions in the show notes and YouTube video description.
Speaker B:And if you guys have any questions on this or thoughts about this or feedback, please drop us a comment.
Speaker B:If you're watching on YouTube, please shoot us an email if you're listening to the audio podcast and we really appreciate it.
Speaker B:The Fort Pillow massacre remains a stark reminder of the brutal nature of war and the complex legacy of racial violence in American history.
Speaker B: ,: Speaker B:This has been a Walk with History production.
Speaker B:Talk With History is created and hosted by me, Scott Benny.
Speaker B:Episode researched by Jennifer Benny.
Speaker B:Check out the show notes for links and references mentioned in this episode.
Speaker B:Talk with History is supported by our fans@thehistoryroadtrip.com our eternal thanks go out to those providing funding to help keep us going.
Speaker B:Thank you to Doug McLiverty, Larry Myers, Patrick Benny and Gale Cooper.
