Reviewing Napoleon with a World-Famous Napoleon Reenactor

Jenn: 00:00:00

So what is your best depiction of Napoleon then?

Mark: 00:00:02

There are several and in fact, Le Figaro magazine, newspaper one

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of the biggest ones in France did a listing of the hundred best Napoleons

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in film and I, I don't want to, I don't want to brag, but I made number 27,

Scott: 00:00:19

All right.

Mark: 00:00:20

In, in my role with Vincent Castle in the, the Emperor of Paris

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and and Joaquin Phoenix was 28.

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Welcome to Talk With History.

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I'm your host, Scott, here with my wife and historian, Jen.

Scott: 00:00:46

Hello.

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Now, our regular listeners may remember some of our Watch With

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History series, where we talk about the historical facts and fiction

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of some of your favorite movies.

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We've only done a couple, but we're glad to bring it back today.

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So on today's Watch With History episode, we're diving into the world

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of cinema to dissect and discuss the much anticipated 2023 film Napoleon,

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a cinematic journey into the life and times of the legendary French emperor.

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Join us as we unravel the threads of history woven into this blockbuster,

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exploring the triumphs, the tribulations, and the undeniable charisma of one of

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history's most captivating figures.

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Now, what makes this episode extra special is that we have a fantastic

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guest on board, a man who doesn't just study history, but lives and breathes it.

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The renowned Napoleon reenactor, Mark Schneider.

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Welcome, Mark.

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Thank you.

Mark: 00:01:48

Thank you.

Mark: 00:01:48

Thanks for having

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Yeah, Mark brings a unique perspective to the table, having done

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the iconic bye corn hat stepped into the boots of Napoleon himself.

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Get ready for some incredible insights from someone who's literally

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walked in the emperor's shoes.

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So, Mark, thank you again for joining us.

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We're really excited to have you.

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Jen's been like talking about this for weeks now, and we both

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finally got to see the movie.

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So, so Can you kind of talk, tell us our audience a little bit about who

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you are, kind of the different figures that you reenact for and, and kind

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of how you came about to play in the part of Napoleon for quite some time.

Mark: 00:02:27

Absolutely, and thank you again for having me.

Mark: 00:02:30

So, the Napoleon character has been a lifelong passion.

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my mother used to say, and my mother was French and my dad's American,

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that's my French connection.

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My mother would often say that she never knew a time that I

Mark: 00:02:42

was not interested in Napoleon.

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I just seemed to have this fascination.

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One of my French cousins gave me a little toy soldier of Napoleon.

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He's actually right up here.

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When I was like two or three years old and I was hooked ever since when kids

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at school had Batman and Superman on their desk, I had Napoleon on my desk.

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That's

Mark: 00:03:01

So one day I came home from school and I was really upset because

Mark: 00:03:06

I've always been short and people made fun of my shortness and my big nose.

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And my mother said to me, you know, the only people who have who are short and

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have big noses are kings and emperors.

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And so maybe that was the, the catalyst to make me become Napoleon because

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I collected everything Napoleon read everything I possibly could on him.

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I war gamed, I ran around town as one of his soldiers, but it wouldn't be until.

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I became an adult when I started to actively pursue reenacting and I was

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given the opportunity to become Napoleon.

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I actually was in the U.

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S.

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Army, and two weeks after I got out I came to Colonial Williamsburg to work.

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at the largest living history museum in the world.

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And I joined this reenacting group, which was outside of colonial Williamsburg,

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and we portrayed Napoleon's seventh, who SARS, which was a French cavalry

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regiment during the Napoleonic wars.

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Well, one event we did, they needed somebody to portray Napoleon.

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And I had attended the Napoleonic society of America conference, and I had acquired.

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a costume that was worn by Albert in the 1927 silent film, Napoleon,

Scott: 00:04:15

Oh, cool.

Mark: 00:04:15

fit me perfectly.

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It was, it was incredible.

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In fact, it fit me so well that the guy who was selling it gave

Mark: 00:04:23

me this ridiculous discount.

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He's like, you, you're meant to have this.

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And I picked up the iconic, buy corn and put the rest of the kit together.

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And I started portraying Napoleon.

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It became very, very popular.

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We did history channel.

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Documentaries and we were given opportunities to, to do a bit

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of traveling, did the Louisiana Purchase with Thomas Jefferson.

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But in 2005, I was given a a phone call by a group in Belgium and they

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were they were looking for a Napoleon.

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In fact the guy called me, his name is Mark Van Meerbeek and

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said is this Monsieur Schneider we would like you to play Napoleon

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on the battlefield at Waterloo.

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And I hung up on him.

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I thought he was, I thought it was like one of my friends, like, kidding with me.

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But he called back, thank goodness, and I sent him a resume, and I started to

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go to Europe from that moment forward.

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So in 2005 is where it all really began.

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I, I really have to give thanks to Colonial Williamsburg for teaching

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me the art of living history, of character interpretation, of

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nation building, as we call it.

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And because I don't think they had seen that in reenactment before, where you

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take on the actual role of one of these generals or characters from history

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and immerse yourself, not only with the public, but with the reenactors

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so, That that's how it all began.

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And so it's taken me to, to Belgium.

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It's taken me to France.

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It's taken me to Russia.

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It's taken me to Germany, to Italy, Spain, Czech Republic.

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In fact, I'm leaving for the Czech Republic on Wednesday to recreate.

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The Battle of Austerlitz so that's my background on Napoleon.

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Of course, I omitted a little bit about my work in Colonial Williamsburg.

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I've been in the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation for 26 years.

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And much of that time I have been portraying the Marquis de Lafayette.

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So another Frenchman.

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Who I do on a daily basis in a variety of different performances

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inside theaters, outdoor theaters riding horses, immersing the public

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with the history of the American Revolution and Lafayette's part in it.

Mark: 00:06:24

So that should bring everybody up to date on what I'm all about.

Scott: 00:06:28

that's perfect.

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I mean, really showing kind of from, and that's, I mean, you

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kind of hit all the high points that we ask a lot of our guests.

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You know, I can tell it's, it's, it's very possible that you've

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spoken in front of a camera before.

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But

Jenn: 00:06:40

that's what I was gonna say, like, you, you've Practiced

Jenn: 00:06:43

it so much and the thing is you get better the more you do it.

Jenn: 00:06:46

I want to also say Mark is also an equestrian.

Jenn: 00:06:49

He is a fantastic horseman, so it really adds to the role when you

Jenn: 00:06:55

play Napoleon and you're on the horse and you also speak fluent French.

Jenn: 00:07:01

And so.

Jenn: 00:07:03

Yes.

Jenn: 00:07:04

And so, I mean, again, those things make you so much more authentic

Jenn: 00:07:08

to playing those characters.

Mark: 00:07:11

I think it's one thing to know the who, what, when, where, why, you know,

Mark: 00:07:16

when you were born, what battles you fought in, who are you married to what

Mark: 00:07:19

were some pivotal moments in your life, but it's something else to immerse you.

Mark: 00:07:24

Yourself into the 18th or 19th century with the things that they did, you know,

Mark: 00:07:29

whether it's you know, the knowledge of the, the layout of the city of Paris

Mark: 00:07:33

in 1784, when Napoleon was attending the École Militaire Royale or, you

Mark: 00:07:38

know, you can't say, well, I made a left at the Eiffel Tower and then I

Mark: 00:07:41

went by the Georges Pompidou Center because those things weren't there.

Scott: 00:07:45

Mhm.

Mark: 00:07:47

of the uniform riding horses, you know, horses have no patriotism.

Mark: 00:07:52

They will throw a prince just as soon as they'll throw a pauper.

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So you have to practice and practice and practice.

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It's the only way you're going to become...

Mark: 00:08:00

Proficient at riding or fencing using the weapons, swords or musket or firing a

Mark: 00:08:06

cannon, you know, Napoleon was considered to be the greatest artillerist in history.

Mark: 00:08:10

If I don't know how to fire a cannon, then I'm not going to

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be a very convincing Napoleon.

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The same holds true with the, the horses on these reenactment battlefields

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that the cannons are going off and the horse doesn't know it's it's

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make believe that it's a reenact.

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It's frightening to them.

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So you have to use all your skills to you know, stay on, stay on the horse's

Mark: 00:08:30

back and look as impressive as possible.

Jenn: 00:08:33

When I see you portray those those characters, I feel

Jenn: 00:08:37

like you just embody them.

Jenn: 00:08:39

Little side note, one of my greatest experiences with you, Mark was even

Jenn: 00:08:42

before I even met you personally and was my birthday a year ago, I went

Jenn: 00:08:46

to Colonial Williamsburg by myself and my birthday is in December.

Jenn: 00:08:49

It's like the big first week of December and I was walking down the street.

Jenn: 00:08:53

by myself and you were walking down the street by yourself as Lafayette and

Jenn: 00:08:57

like nobody was really there because it's like a weekday in December and I

Jenn: 00:09:01

felt like this is my birthday present.

Jenn: 00:09:03

I get to talk to Lafayette and you and I talked for like 10 minutes

Jenn: 00:09:06

and I was like nobody was around and I'm like this is the greatest gift.

Scott: 00:09:10

I remember she came home because I think it was like a Wednesday

Scott: 00:09:13

so I was working and she came, she came home, I came home and she was

Scott: 00:09:17

riding so high off of that it was, you know, I was, it was so funny.

Scott: 00:09:21

It was so

Mark: 00:09:22

That's, that's awesome.

Mark: 00:09:23

Well, happy birthday in advance.

Jenn: 00:09:25

you.

Jenn: 00:09:26

Thank you.

Jenn: 00:09:26

But I feel like you really do.

Jenn: 00:09:29

You embody those those characters so well that I really do feel like I'm

Jenn: 00:09:33

interacting with the Marquis de Lafayette.

Jenn: 00:09:35

Even in today's time, we can we can pick up the conversation anywhere.

Jenn: 00:09:39

I think we spoke about your Your tour, when you came back to America and

Jenn: 00:09:43

toward America later in life, even though that's not the age you were

Jenn: 00:09:47

portraying, you still, we still talked about that time in Lafayette's life.

Jenn: 00:09:52

And it's just amazing how much, you know, and how quickly you're able to jump

Jenn: 00:09:56

around and, and have that conversation.

Jenn: 00:09:59

So I think I give you guys a lot of credit for what you do.

Jenn: 00:10:01

You make Colonial Williamsburg for me.

Jenn: 00:10:04

that much more enjoyable and what a great experience being there.

Mark: 00:10:10

Well, I greatly appreciate that.

Mark: 00:10:11

That's kind of you to say.

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I think all of us in our team in Colonial Williamsburg, who are

Mark: 00:10:15

part of the Nation Builders, really you know, to use an expression

Mark: 00:10:19

that we would use, we're all in.

Mark: 00:10:21

You can't do half measures.

Mark: 00:10:22

You have to go all the way and not worry about feeling foolish or silly.

Mark: 00:10:27

But I think most of us, Would be reading books about the 18th and 19th

Mark: 00:10:32

century anyway, even if we didn't work for Colonial Williamsburg.

Mark: 00:10:36

So there's a genuine passion there and love for history.

Mark: 00:10:39

I often say I didn't choose history.

Mark: 00:10:41

History chose me because there hasn't been a time where I have

Mark: 00:10:44

not been fascinated with history.

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You know, it's interesting.

Mark: 00:10:46

I can forget like what I had for breakfast, but you know, when

Mark: 00:10:50

I wake up in the morning, I'm like, wow, today's the 27th.

Mark: 00:10:53

On this day, Napoleon's troops were crossing the Berenzina river.

Mark: 00:10:57

To get out of Russia during the horrible retreat of 1812.

Mark: 00:11:01

You know, that's what pops into my head.

Mark: 00:11:03

And you know, I'm, I can be forgetful of so many other things, but when

Mark: 00:11:07

it comes to dates and history and great moments in people's lives

Mark: 00:11:10

I just don't seem to forget them.

Jenn: 00:11:13

Is there a story that stands out to you like a funny story or something that

Jenn: 00:11:18

happened that you're that you were like, I'm never going to forget this or being

Jenn: 00:11:22

at this moment right here and doing this and saying this was there was a particular

Jenn: 00:11:26

moment for you that really resonates is playing either a Napoleon or Lafayette.

Mark: 00:11:31

Sure.

Mark: 00:11:32

In fact, there's many, but I won't trouble you with too many.

Mark: 00:11:36

One really, really great moment in my life was that in 2006, I was

Mark: 00:11:41

contacted by a gentleman who lives in Berlin Berlin, Germany, and he wanted

Mark: 00:11:47

to do a publicity stunt for his his store, which is called Berlin Story.

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They sell books and...

Mark: 00:11:55

Paraphernalia that you can get that's reminiscent of Berlin.

Mark: 00:11:59

And so, he flew me over and he, what he wanted me to do was get

Mark: 00:12:03

on a white horse as Napoleon and march through the Brandenburg gate

Mark: 00:12:08

200 years after Napoleon did it.

Mark: 00:12:11

And he arranged to have the key to the city given to me.

Mark: 00:12:15

Well, this went viral.

Mark: 00:12:17

And there were over 20, 000 people there.

Mark: 00:12:21

So, I can show, I can show you some pictures, but it was surreal, because

Mark: 00:12:25

here, I get on this white horse, and I've never been on him before.

Mark: 00:12:29

I don't know if he's gonna go ballistic, throw me, you know, killed

Mark: 00:12:32

in front of the Brandenburg Gate but it just worked out perfectly.

Mark: 00:12:36

And the, the press was so massive.

Mark: 00:12:38

And everybody was pushed up against this horse.

Mark: 00:12:40

I'm surprised he didn't kick or bite or, but it just worked.

Mark: 00:12:45

And, you know, we, we had 20, 000 Berliners celebrating one of the

Mark: 00:12:51

worst moments in their history when Napoleon occupied the city.

Mark: 00:12:54

And they gave me the key to this.

Mark: 00:12:55

I had to give it back, of course, but but it was such a surreal

Mark: 00:13:00

moment that is imprinted in my mind.

Mark: 00:13:02

What, what a.

Mark: 00:13:03

Great, great opportunity.

Mark: 00:13:04

I will never forget that one.

Mark: 00:13:06

But fortunately, with this Napoleon character, or even Lafayette character,

Mark: 00:13:11

I do get a lot of wonderful opportunities to to have these moments that hopefully,

Mark: 00:13:17

God willing, I won't ever forget.

Scott: 00:13:19

Yeah, no, that that's that's an amazing one.

Scott: 00:13:22

And I can only imagine some of the other opportunities that you've had

Scott: 00:13:26

that are just so unique to what you do.

Jenn: 00:13:30

And real quick, before we dive into the movie, I just want to ask about

Jenn: 00:13:33

the uniforms because they're fantastic.

Jenn: 00:13:36

And so I know for Colonial Williamsburg, they take care of your uniform,

Jenn: 00:13:41

especially the wig Lafayette wears.

Jenn: 00:13:42

You have, like, the best wig makers in the nation who take care of your wig.

Jenn: 00:13:47

For Napoleon, you have a couple different ones, right?

Jenn: 00:13:51

And you keep one overseas, you keep one here in America.

Jenn: 00:13:54

How does that work?

Jenn: 00:13:56

Mm

Scott: 00:13:56

hmm.

Mark: 00:13:56

So with the yes for 20 Williamsburg, we have a fantastic team

Mark: 00:14:01

with our historic clothing department.

Mark: 00:14:04

The wig makers are magnificent.

Mark: 00:14:06

They do such a great job.

Mark: 00:14:08

In fact, I have like three or four different wigs that I use and we just keep

Mark: 00:14:11

rotating them, but they do a spectacular job historically accurate and everything.

Mark: 00:14:16

And then the clothing is tailor made to me.

Mark: 00:14:19

You know, yet another responsibility for portraying these characters.

Mark: 00:14:23

You know, you need to stay as fit as you possibly can to try to really

Mark: 00:14:27

look the part because, you know, nobody wants a chubby Lafayette.

Mark: 00:14:32

So maybe, maybe Napoleon in his later years, but I try to keep

Mark: 00:14:35

the 1805 physique as best I can.

Mark: 00:14:38

But with the Napoleon one, yes, I keep a couple of them in Europe.

Mark: 00:14:41

So I can, I don't have to transport them every time and the

Mark: 00:14:45

wear and tear that goes with it.

Mark: 00:14:46

And I have a great team over there that they'd house them and then

Mark: 00:14:50

they will bring them to the event.

Mark: 00:14:51

So for example, going to Austerlitz, I will bring a uniform from the United

Mark: 00:14:55

States, but my hat is waiting for me.

Mark: 00:14:57

My saddle is waiting for me.

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My bridal is waiting for me.

Mark: 00:15:00

And my, naturally my sword is waiting for me.

Mark: 00:15:04

I can't bring that on board.

Mark: 00:15:05

But those were all tailor made for me.

Mark: 00:15:08

And, you know, Napoleon had a variety of different uniforms, from the 1790s Italian

Mark: 00:15:13

campaign to the Egyptian campaign, and then the more iconic Chasseur Impériale,

Mark: 00:15:18

the green one, or the Grenadier à pied that he wore usually just on Sundays.

Mark: 00:15:24

So, I have all of those and the, of course, iconic Reddingoat, that gray

Mark: 00:15:28

coat that he, he quite often wore.

Mark: 00:15:31

so Yeah, it takes time to acquire all of those things, to get them tailor made

Mark: 00:15:36

and you know, sometimes they need to be replaced, the britches, or the waistcoat

Mark: 00:15:40

or your stock or your boots, you know, I have a pair of Italian boots that cost me

Mark: 00:15:44

a thousand euros, but they're worth every every penny because they, they are, they

Mark: 00:15:49

are Napoleon's boots they're magnificent.

Scott: 00:15:51

that's, that's

Jenn: 00:15:52

amazing.

Jenn: 00:15:52

That's amazing.

Jenn: 00:15:54

And I mean, so we'll talk about the movie, but the costuming in the movie to me

Jenn: 00:15:59

is all is reminiscent of the costumes.

Jenn: 00:16:02

You wear because you're you look just as good as what they

Jenn: 00:16:07

had in the Napoleon movie.

Jenn: 00:16:08

And I will, I do think the costumes of Napoleon should win an Oscar.

Jenn: 00:16:13

I mean, they really were amazing.

Jenn: 00:16:15

But when you, when I see you in your full gala, you know, for Lafayette or

Jenn: 00:16:21

for Napoleon, you look just as good.

Jenn: 00:16:23

It really is impressive to see you in full uniform.

Mark: 00:16:26

Thank you.

Mark: 00:16:27

Yeah, again, it's just it's I think before you even open your mouth on a

Mark: 00:16:31

stage when you get up on stage, you should already have told the public

Mark: 00:16:35

who you are and and be as confident as you possibly can in those clothes

Mark: 00:16:40

and the clothes need to look good.

Mark: 00:16:41

If they're ill fitting, if they're baggy, if they're look like they were

Mark: 00:16:45

worn by your older, bigger brother.

Mark: 00:16:47

And then you kind of you've lost a little bit of an opportunity to be

Mark: 00:16:51

that much better as that character.

Jenn: 00:16:53

Well, and we, I know that you just saw the premiere and now you

Jenn: 00:16:57

were in Quebec for the premiere.

Jenn: 00:16:58

You portrayed

Mark: 00:17:00

I was in, in Montreal.

Jenn: 00:17:03

Okay.

Jenn: 00:17:03

Okay.

Mark: 00:17:04

Yes.

Mark: 00:17:04

So in the, the, the, the region of Quebec though.

Mark: 00:17:08

So I did, and then I saw it on opening night here in Williamsburg as well.

Mark: 00:17:12

So I've seen it twice.

Mark: 00:17:14

I was going to go last night again, and then I, I told myself not to.

Mark: 00:17:18

So,

Scott: 00:17:20

Well, we, we were, we had to kind of trade off kid days and just that and

Scott: 00:17:24

the other, but I'm going to give, I'm going to give a quick summary for, for our

Scott: 00:17:27

listeners, just to kind of remind them.

Scott: 00:17:33

the movie, , directed by Ridley Scott and starring Joaquin Phoenix

Scott: 00:17:37

as Napoleon Bonaparte and Vanessa Kirby as Empress Josephine.

Scott: 00:17:42

Napoleon is a historical epic that explores the rise and fall of the iconic

Scott: 00:17:46

French emperor through the lens of his tumultuous relationship with his wife.

Scott: 00:17:51

Set against the backdrop of the French Revolution, the film chronicles

Scott: 00:17:54

Napoleon's meteoric ascent from a young Corsican artillery officer to

Scott: 00:17:59

Emperor of France, showcasing his military genius and political ambition.

Scott: 00:18:05

However, the film also delves into the complex and often Volatile nature of

Scott: 00:18:09

Napoleon's relationship with Josephine, a marriage plagued by infidelity,

Scott: 00:18:14

jealousy, and the pressures of power.

Scott: 00:18:17

Napoleon's relentless pursuit, of power and his insatiable desire

Scott: 00:18:21

for glory lead him to conquer much of Europe, but his ambitions

Scott: 00:18:24

ultimately prove to be his undoing.

Scott: 00:18:27

As his empire expands, so does seemingly his ego, and he becomes increasingly

Scott: 00:18:32

isolated and Somewhat paranoid, at least in the movie, his disastrous 1812 invasion

Scott: 00:18:38

of Russia marks a turning point, and he's eventually forced to abdicate and

Scott: 00:18:42

exiled to the remote island of Elba.

Scott: 00:18:45

Despite his downfall, Napoleon remains a figure of fascination and intrigue,

Scott: 00:18:49

and the film offers a nuanced and compelling portrait of a man who both

Scott: 00:18:53

shaped And was shaped by history.

Scott: 00:18:55

So, , I have to ask, , what did you guys think?

Scott: 00:18:58

Jen told me a little bit about what she thought, but Mark, what were some of your

Scott: 00:19:02

first thoughts when you got to see it?

Mark: 00:19:05

So I can't see the forest through the trees from the get go.

Mark: 00:19:09

I was like, no, no, no!

Mark: 00:19:14

It but I had to let it go because, you know, even films like The Patriot with

Mark: 00:19:20

Mel Gibson set during the American Revolution in the Southern Theater of

Mark: 00:19:23

Operations, I are entertaining, even if they are not historically accurate.

Mark: 00:19:28

So, early on in the film, I had to say, okay, he didn't witness

Mark: 00:19:32

the execution of Marie Antoinette.

Mark: 00:19:35

Okay.

Mark: 00:19:36

In 1793, he didn't get the command for the artillery at

Mark: 00:19:40

Toulon in Paris by Paul Barat.

Mark: 00:19:43

There, it just, the, the list kept going on and on and on of these inaccuracies.

Mark: 00:19:48

Even the assaults on too long didn't occur that way.

Mark: 00:19:52

And there was a, a, a, a, a brief moment where I thought that they were

Mark: 00:19:56

going to get something very obscure.

Mark: 00:19:59

Correct?

Mark: 00:20:00

When Napoleon goes over the top at the attack at too long, early

Mark: 00:20:03

in the in the film where he was stabbed in the thigh with a pike.

Mark: 00:20:08

And I see him fighting hand to hand combat and it never happens, so, it

Mark: 00:20:14

just made me a little bit frustrated.

Mark: 00:20:15

So, my...

Mark: 00:20:17

My thoughts after seeing it for the first time up in Montreal were

Mark: 00:20:21

a little bit disbelief that It's such a great story the real story.

Mark: 00:20:26

Why did you want to change it?

Mark: 00:20:29

I I thought the underlying theme of this film is that it's a love story

Mark: 00:20:35

It's a love story between napoleon and josephine And I thought vanessa

Mark: 00:20:40

kirby, did an outstanding job in the role of Josephine really, she showed

Mark: 00:20:46

the many, many layers of the empress.

Mark: 00:20:49

I don't know if Joachim was directed to portray his Napoleon like that, but

Mark: 00:20:54

he was a bit two dimensional to me.

Mark: 00:20:56

I, I think, you know, Napoleon has...

Mark: 00:21:00

There's so much to Napoleon that I don't think you can play him just one

Mark: 00:21:05

way So, I didn't see that coming out of Joachim, either through direction with

Mark: 00:21:11

Ridley Scott or out of his own choices.

Mark: 00:21:15

There were certain things that I just thought were absurd, such as

Mark: 00:21:18

Napoleon leading cavalry charges.

Mark: 00:21:21

At Austerlitz and at Waterloo, which never happened it, it just, I'm not

Mark: 00:21:26

quite sure why they put that in.

Mark: 00:21:28

I didn't, I don't see how it it moved the narrative forward with

Mark: 00:21:32

something like that happening.

Mark: 00:21:33

But again, just letting it go.

Mark: 00:21:35

It's, it's fiction based upon history.

Mark: 00:21:38

So why not?

Mark: 00:21:40

Maybe Joachim wanted to lead a cavalry charge.

Mark: 00:21:42

I don't know.

Scott: 00:21:43

Yeah.

Scott: 00:21:43

And, and that's actually one of the things that when Jen, she

Scott: 00:21:45

saw, I think, opening night.

Scott: 00:21:46

Yep.

Scott: 00:21:47

And she came home and I was like, okay, yeah, give it to me.

Scott: 00:21:50

She said it's a bunch of the same stuff that you did, right?

Scott: 00:21:53

And we, you know, historically they compress things or they put him in,

Scott: 00:21:57

in spots where he wasn't actually, which is relatively typical of, of some

Scott: 00:22:02

history movies that we, we talk about.

Scott: 00:22:04

But one of the things that she.

Scott: 00:22:05

That she mentioned specifically the stuck out in my mind that you touched

Scott: 00:22:09

on was they didn't really portray how much his, his men loved him, like,

Scott: 00:22:15

like truly loved him as, as a leader.

Scott: 00:22:16

Right.

Scott: 00:22:17

And, and you had, you had talked about that.

Scott: 00:22:19

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:22:19

Like, so same thing.

Jenn: 00:22:21

I feel the same way you do mark.

Jenn: 00:22:22

Like I love a good historic.

Jenn: 00:22:24

Movie, even if it's not accurate, if it can really pull me in like gladiator,

Jenn: 00:22:28

like I can feel for the character I I'm all in and I really wanted them to show

Jenn: 00:22:35

the love of Napoleon because I'm sure you must feel this when you've been

Jenn: 00:22:38

portraying Napoleon is this his men.

Jenn: 00:22:41

Loved him, right?

Jenn: 00:22:43

And I wanted to see more of his countrymen loving him.

Jenn: 00:22:47

Napoleon did much more than just win wars, right?

Jenn: 00:22:50

Napoleon helped, you know, he, he brought the Rosetta Stone.

Jenn: 00:22:55

He helped with the civil code of France.

Jenn: 00:22:57

Like he was doing so much with the, with the, with the money system in France.

Jenn: 00:23:00

Like he really wanted to build a country for his people and

Jenn: 00:23:05

people loved him for that.

Jenn: 00:23:07

And I couldn't quite see the love of his people.

Jenn: 00:23:10

I couldn't quite see, you know, even the love story with him and Josephine.

Jenn: 00:23:14

It seemed, I wasn't quite sure, like there's a codependency going on here.

Jenn: 00:23:20

Like it really wasn't interesting where I think trying to tell both stories.

Jenn: 00:23:27

You did, you didn't tell both stories.

Jenn: 00:23:28

Well, you know, you told both stories.

Jenn: 00:23:30

Okay.

Jenn: 00:23:31

I think if you were to try to go with one or the other, maybe you could have

Jenn: 00:23:34

told one really well, but trying to tell both of them, it didn't quite go as well.

Jenn: 00:23:39

Although I do believe she's the best Josephine I've ever seen on screen.

Mark: 00:23:42

She's quite

Jenn: 00:23:44

she was, she was, but like you said, like, even in the beginning

Jenn: 00:23:47

with Marie Antoinette, I was like, okay, is this Marie Antoinette?

Jenn: 00:23:50

Because she did not look like that when she's beheaded, right?

Jenn: 00:23:53

She's been in prison for a year.

Jenn: 00:23:55

Yeah.

Mark: 00:23:55

her hair

Jenn: 00:23:55

They cut her hair.

Jenn: 00:23:57

Yeah, she's wearing like just a white shift.

Jenn: 00:24:00

She looks horrible.

Jenn: 00:24:01

And then you don't even have to have Napoleon there.

Jenn: 00:24:04

Like they could have just showed that.

Jenn: 00:24:06

And you could have understood what France is going through.

Jenn: 00:24:10

And so I was like, okay, okay, so he must be going for some kind Nopal You

Jenn: 00:24:14

know, reaction here with Napoleon there.

Jenn: 00:24:16

But then, and then getting into like, he's running away from his people.

Jenn: 00:24:20

He's afraid of his people.

Jenn: 00:24:22

He's not quite sure how to lead the people.

Jenn: 00:24:24

And I'm like, no, that, that wasn't Napoleon.

Jenn: 00:24:26

And so I felt like that was where.

Jenn: 00:24:29

Joaquin Phoenix was kind of losing the character and they, I think they

Jenn: 00:24:33

made him look more like a tyrant

Mark: 00:24:35

absolutely

Jenn: 00:24:36

and he was very enlightened, like the man loved theater.

Jenn: 00:24:41

He wanted, he, he loves, you know, to be well versed.

Jenn: 00:24:44

He loved literature.

Jenn: 00:24:44

He wanted to educate.

Jenn: 00:24:46

I mean, think about the Louvre.

Jenn: 00:24:49

today is where Napoleon lived.

Jenn: 00:24:51

It's, it's, he brought in all the art.

Jenn: 00:24:53

He brought like, he wanted to have all of that culture in France and

Jenn: 00:24:58

it made it, I didn't see that from the character that he was playing.

Scott: 00:25:02

Yes.

Mark: 00:25:09

challenge to follow it.

Mark: 00:25:11

Because you start in 1793 and too long yet there was no map that kind

Mark: 00:25:15

of directed you to where too long is if you don't know, it's on the, I

Mark: 00:25:19

mean, you, you're Navy people, so you do , but, but you know, it's, it's

Mark: 00:25:23

a southern port, the Mediterranean.

Mark: 00:25:25

But why was it significant?

Mark: 00:25:26

They didn't really play that out, him watching, moran, go to the guillotine.

Mark: 00:25:31

Okay, you can put him there.

Mark: 00:25:32

But what purpose is it serving?

Mark: 00:25:34

I think the purpose it could have served is Napoleon saying, beware the mob,

Mark: 00:25:39

beware the people and their reactions.

Mark: 00:25:41

They might go to excess.

Mark: 00:25:43

I think that's a great learning moment or teaching moment or

Mark: 00:25:47

revealing moment for who Napoleon was.

Mark: 00:25:50

You 1795 and he destroys with the what they call the width of grape shot.

Mark: 00:25:55

Yeah.

Mark: 00:25:56

And he fires upon the royalist mob and then we jump, we skip the entire Italian

Mark: 00:26:01

campaign, 1796 and 1797, which is the most pivotal time for him and Josephine.

Mark: 00:26:08

You know, he gets married on March the 9th, 1796, and he goes

Mark: 00:26:12

right after to lead his army.

Mark: 00:26:14

And that's where you could have had that.

Mark: 00:26:16

That building moment to show him and his men you know, it could have been nice to

Mark: 00:26:21

have a veteran that was with him in 1796.

Mark: 00:26:24

And then we follow him to 1805 at Austerlitz, then we

Mark: 00:26:26

follow him to Russia in 1812.

Mark: 00:26:28

And then he maybe dies in 1815 that we see this relationship, why they love this guy.

Mark: 00:26:35

pivotal scene when Napoleon returns from Elba and he meets the

Mark: 00:26:40

soldiers of the Fifth Regiment.

Mark: 00:26:42

They even get it wrong.

Mark: 00:26:44

I think that some of the, the, the script writer didn't catch it, but

Mark: 00:26:49

he goes, soldiers of my Fifth Army.

Mark: 00:26:51

And then in the next scene, he goes, soldiers of my Fifth Regiment.

Mark: 00:26:55

I mean, do you not know the difference between regiment and army?

Mark: 00:26:59

My head exploded in the theater.

Mark: 00:27:01

And, and that scene is so pivotal because, you know, Soldiers of the

Mark: 00:27:04

Fifth and he opens up his reddingoat.

Mark: 00:27:07

Do you recognize me?

Mark: 00:27:08

I am your emperor.

Mark: 00:27:09

If anyone wishes to kill his emperor, here I am.

Mark: 00:27:13

And it was just floppy.

Mark: 00:27:15

It was poorly done.

Mark: 00:27:16

I, I, it could have been done so much better.

Scott: 00:27:18

Yeah.

Scott: 00:27:19

The, the, as as Jen and I were, were, were chatting a couple days ago.

Scott: 00:27:22

Like I, I think you pointed out, they could have probably inserted

Scott: 00:27:27

a couple, a couple key things that really would've tied it a little

Scott: 00:27:31

bit more together, even for me.

Scott: 00:27:33

Right.

Scott: 00:27:33

I went in Mm-Hmm.

Scott: 00:27:34

, you know, with not, not knowing a lot of the history, not, I, I just assumed

Scott: 00:27:38

like, okay, they're gonna compress stuff.

Scott: 00:27:40

You know?

Scott: 00:27:40

I heard a little bit from Jen.

Scott: 00:27:42

But even for me when they came to that moment when he returned from from

Scott: 00:27:45

Elba, I was like They don't really explain why these people all of a

Scott: 00:27:48

sudden just were like, yeah, sure.

Scott: 00:27:50

We're going to follow you instead, right?

Scott: 00:27:52

They never really led up to that and they never explained it.

Scott: 00:27:55

It's just like, yep, I'm just going to say a couple of words

Scott: 00:27:58

and sure, you know, let's do it.

Scott: 00:28:00

Napoleon.

Scott: 00:28:01

And and so even for me, right, the, the, the kind of the non history nerd.

Scott: 00:28:05

as we say often on this podcast, even for me, it kind of, it

Scott: 00:28:08

missed a couple little things.

Scott: 00:28:09

I felt like they were really close.

Scott: 00:28:11

Now, my, my one question to you, you before we started recording, you

Scott: 00:28:16

kind of mentioned the, the letters between Napoleon and Josephine.

Scott: 00:28:19

Do you think that they got their, their relationship kind of relatively close?

Scott: 00:28:25

Was it that kind of volatile?

Scott: 00:28:27

Cause it, it seemed pretty volatile in the, in the movie.

Mark: 00:28:31

I didn't like with the divorce scene in which is supposed to take

Mark: 00:28:35

place in 1809, but I think they had it in 1807 when he slapped her.

Scott: 00:28:41

Mm-Hmm.

Mark: 00:28:41

that was a no go.

Mark: 00:28:43

I, I think.

Mark: 00:28:45

When Napoleon met Josephine in 1795 and then married her in 1796, he was the

Mark: 00:28:51

one who was head over heels for her.

Mark: 00:28:54

She was not so into him.

Mark: 00:28:56

I think it was a marriage of convenience and she, you know, just survived

Mark: 00:28:59

the, the terror of the revolution.

Mark: 00:29:02

But when he goes on that Italian campaign, these letters that he writes, sometimes

Mark: 00:29:07

three or four per day sometimes two or three sentences are so passionate.

Mark: 00:29:13

They are so loving.

Mark: 00:29:14

It just, he, he absolutely adores her.

Mark: 00:29:17

And when he, they did get it right when Napoleon was in Egypt

Mark: 00:29:21

and his friend Junot tells him of Josephine's infidelity with Hippolyte

Mark: 00:29:26

Charles and, and that crushed him.

Mark: 00:29:29

But all throughout the movie, they made it seem like, Oh, well, Napoleon

Mark: 00:29:33

is leaving Egypt because he's upset at Josephine with her lover, Hippolyte

Mark: 00:29:38

Charles, and he has to go back to France.

Mark: 00:29:40

Or when he's on Elba, he's worried about Josephine's health,

Mark: 00:29:44

so he has to escape from Elba.

Mark: 00:29:46

Those are not the reasons that he did those things.

Mark: 00:29:49

But I, I think...

Mark: 00:29:51

What they were trying to do was in the, in the scenes of Napoleon

Mark: 00:29:56

and Josephine together, the, the lovemaking scenes and stuff like that.

Mark: 00:30:00

I think they were trying to show that passion, but it, it really did not come

Mark: 00:30:04

across as the passion from the letters.

Mark: 00:30:07

It made him look like a, a little bit of a monster with her.

Mark: 00:30:12

And I, I don't think that's, again, it's historical fiction based on fact,

Mark: 00:30:17

but I don't think he got that right.

Jenn: 00:30:19

yeah.

Jenn: 00:30:20

No, I a hundred percent agree.

Jenn: 00:30:22

It made him look like a brute with her, and he wasn't that way with her.

Jenn: 00:30:25

And she was already, she had already passed by the time he goes to Elba.

Jenn: 00:30:30

And so that was interesting that they had done that.

Jenn: 00:30:32

I was like, oh, that's.

Jenn: 00:30:34

Interesting timeline there.

Jenn: 00:30:35

And like you said, he never would have, he didn't hit her during the divorce.

Jenn: 00:30:38

He never would have done that.

Jenn: 00:30:39

And honestly, the infidelities I try to stress with people, it's, it's French

Jenn: 00:30:45

and I'm not trying to say that the French people for infidelity is the

Jenn: 00:30:48

norm, but infidelity is very accepted, especially with Royalty and so much.

Jenn: 00:30:55

So when you think of du Barry, who has such a status place, the, the mistress to

Jenn: 00:31:01

Louis the 14th, like it's a very, it's, it's a status place to be a, a mistress.

Jenn: 00:31:07

And that's even what Josephine was when he first meets her.

Jenn: 00:31:11

She was a mistress to a political high standing

Mark: 00:31:15

Paul Berat, yeah.

Jenn: 00:31:16

And so the infidelity, even though he's heartbroken about her

Jenn: 00:31:20

infidelity, he's also being, you know, He's not being faithful, either.

Jenn: 00:31:26

I think the biggest thing for them was they would never ever

Jenn: 00:31:29

have a child and together.

Jenn: 00:31:33

And so and I don't know what it was.

Jenn: 00:31:35

People not sure exactly why.

Jenn: 00:31:37

I give a lot of different reasons, especially with Napoleon being gone a lot.

Jenn: 00:31:43

And she's, you know, she's in her thirties when they marry, but And then

Jenn: 00:31:46

he's gone for long periods of time because they can never conceive a child.

Jenn: 00:31:51

And then he does have some children out of wedlock, so he can have children.

Jenn: 00:31:55

It's that whole idea.

Jenn: 00:31:58

And that is another royal idea that you have to have a legitimate heir.

Jenn: 00:32:02

And because he's emperor, he needs to secure this lineage, this

Jenn: 00:32:07

lineage with a legitimate heir.

Jenn: 00:32:08

And so that's the heartbreak that he, they are a power couple together.

Jenn: 00:32:14

Even, you know, she has come to really Believe and trust in him.

Jenn: 00:32:18

He has come to believe and trust in her.

Jenn: 00:32:20

She's given him political access, help him climb.

Jenn: 00:32:24

She he's given her protection, helped her climb.

Jenn: 00:32:27

She became an empress of France and they really do appreciate

Jenn: 00:32:31

who they are to each other.

Jenn: 00:32:32

Plus.

Jenn: 00:32:33

the love, which I love, Mark.

Jenn: 00:32:36

We're all military.

Jenn: 00:32:37

I tell people when you're deployed or when you're away from somebody,

Jenn: 00:32:40

boy, that love will come flowing out.

Mark: 00:32:45

Absolutely,

Jenn: 00:32:46

You appreciate someone so much more when you're not together.

Jenn: 00:32:51

That's why I think those love letters, they're like,

Jenn: 00:32:53

they're the first love letters.

Jenn: 00:32:55

Like everyone in deployment who's writing their love letters home via email.

Jenn: 00:32:59

Look at Napoleon's writing.

Mark: 00:33:03

exactly.

Mark: 00:33:04

nO, I'm, I'm with you on that.

Mark: 00:33:06

That's a, that's so true.

Mark: 00:33:08

The you know, I think it hurts Napoleon so badly when he heard

Mark: 00:33:12

about the Hippolyte Charles.

Mark: 00:33:14

And I don't think he was ever the same with her, but I do think once.

Mark: 00:33:18

Josephine put aside that lover she didn't have anymore, whereas Napoleon

Mark: 00:33:23

did in that 1802 time period when he becomes consul for life and then emperor

Mark: 00:33:30

you know, they have that window of, of, I think, happiness, you know, it's

Mark: 00:33:34

he, he's just become emperor, he's made her empress you know, he fights

Mark: 00:33:38

the battle of Austerlitz, his greatest victory, he then defeats the Prussians

Mark: 00:33:42

at Jena and Auerstadt and takes Berlin.

Mark: 00:33:44

But it was the Polish campaign where he met that, and they didn't even bring her

Mark: 00:33:48

up Maria Walerka and he had a child with her as well and by that time, I think

Mark: 00:33:54

Napoleon realized that Josephine was incapable of having any more children

Mark: 00:33:58

and for the purpose of, yeah, the, the lineage he was going to have to

Mark: 00:34:02

marry somebody who could have a child.

Mark: 00:34:05

But, you know, everything went downhill after that.

Mark: 00:34:08

It's interesting to note because they used to call Josephine Our Lady of Victories.

Mark: 00:34:12

The soldiers used to call her that.

Mark: 00:34:14

And you know, he did have his meteoric rise from 1795

Mark: 00:34:18

till he divorces her in 1809.

Mark: 00:34:21

And after 1809, things just start to fall apart.

Mark: 00:34:25

And it's I've often wondered about that, you know, the The, the luck that Josephine

Mark: 00:34:30

brought with Napoleon because, you know, 1809 campaign did not go terribly

Mark: 00:34:35

well, Spain 1810 11 was not going well, 1812 goes without saying, 1813 14 15.

Mark: 00:34:43

Things just really went downhill.

Mark: 00:34:45

So it's, it's, I think it's also telling, you know, Napoleon's last words for

Mark: 00:34:50

France l'armée, tête l'armée, Josephine.

Mark: 00:34:53

Last word he said, Josephine.

Mark: 00:34:55

I think that really speaks volumes.

Jenn: 00:34:58

I love, I love hearing you say that stuff in French.

Jenn: 00:35:02

Okay.

Jenn: 00:35:02

So, and I agree with you that, let's touch one more thing, what they, we

Jenn: 00:35:06

could, they could have done better.

Jenn: 00:35:07

Let's then, let's go to what they did right.

Jenn: 00:35:08

They should have had a map, Mark.

Jenn: 00:35:10

They should have had a map to show Napoleon's empire.

Jenn: 00:35:14

And then, like, they should have because I think that's impressive, too.

Jenn: 00:35:18

We should have been able to see the scale, right?

Jenn: 00:35:20

Like what he's doing across Europe.

Jenn: 00:35:22

And

Mark: 00:35:23

So how many people know where Austerlitz is?

Mark: 00:35:26

You know, I mean, really, do people know it's in the Czech Republic?

Scott: 00:35:30

exactly.

Mark: 00:35:32

and there was no Czech Republic in the time period of Napoleon.

Mark: 00:35:35

It's all part of Moravia or Bohemia part of the Austrian Empire.

Mark: 00:35:39

So I, I think, yeah, just for context, you know, crawl, walk, run.

Mark: 00:35:42

Let's make it simple for everybody who's watching this, from the

Mark: 00:35:46

Napoleonic scholar to the guy who's never heard of Napoleon before.

Scott: 00:35:49

Yeah,

Jenn: 00:35:50

absolutely.

Jenn: 00:35:51

So what did they get right?

Jenn: 00:35:53

What was what?

Jenn: 00:35:54

Something you're like, this is awesome.

Jenn: 00:35:56

Like, you know, I talked a little bit about the costumes, but I mean, those

Jenn: 00:36:00

fight scenes, Mark, like, and I wanted to ask you about the horse when he

Jenn: 00:36:03

gets the cannonball out of the horse,

Mark: 00:36:05

all.

Jenn: 00:36:06

but did that really happen?

Jenn: 00:36:08

I was like, I have to ask Mark about this.

Mark: 00:36:10

No, I mean, he had, he, he had several horses killed from under him.

Mark: 00:36:14

But I, I'd never seen that before.

Mark: 00:36:17

That was that was all Hollywood at its best.

Mark: 00:36:19

And then him reaching his hand to pull out, it looked like it

Mark: 00:36:22

was a three pounder, maybe a, I think, yeah, it was a three pounder

Mark: 00:36:25

that he pulls out of the horse.

Mark: 00:36:27

That was, that was interesting.

Mark: 00:36:28

An interesting choice.

Mark: 00:36:30

So the battle scenes were not accurate.

Mark: 00:36:33

So, Austerlitz was fascinating, because I've been to that battlefield more than

Mark: 00:36:41

any other battlefield in, in my life, and you know, I've gone over the terrain,

Mark: 00:36:46

and that's okay if you don't want to get the terrain, but the, the key problem

Mark: 00:36:49

with the battle scenes is that, They kept putting up these French tents.

Mark: 00:36:54

Now, Napoleon had a campaign tent that he would stay in periodically

Mark: 00:36:58

as they were on the march.

Mark: 00:36:59

And some of the, yeah, there was a whole layout of tents and stuff like that.

Mark: 00:37:03

But the tents would never be found, like, right on the battle lines.

Mark: 00:37:07

And that seems to be what Ridley Scott did with both Austerlitz

Mark: 00:37:12

Borodino in Russia, and with Waterloo.

Mark: 00:37:15

And also, the men, like, creating these entrenchments, Yes, in some Napoleonic

Mark: 00:37:20

battles, they did put up entrenchments, the use of the gabions, and defense works,

Mark: 00:37:26

and earthworks, and things like that but not for Austerlitz, uh, Austerlitz

Mark: 00:37:32

was a, it's a massive battlefield, and it was a battle of maneuver.

Mark: 00:37:37

And then a battle of annihilation at the end.

Mark: 00:37:39

And I just don't think they, you know, the whole idea with the lakes

Mark: 00:37:44

and him firing upon the lakes.

Mark: 00:37:45

Yes, those lakes are in the southern portion of the battlefield.

Mark: 00:37:49

They have since been drained and an archaeological dig was done in which

Mark: 00:37:54

they unearthed like three bodies.

Mark: 00:37:57

Three.

Mark: 00:37:58

One, two, three.

Mark: 00:37:59

And I think of the skeletal remains of a horse.

Mark: 00:38:02

So, were those pawns destroyed by canon?

Mark: 00:38:06

Probably, during the battle.

Mark: 00:38:08

But did they inflict the carnage that the movie showed?

Mark: 00:38:10

No, no they did not.

Scott: 00:38:13

Yeah.

Scott: 00:38:13

Interesting.

Scott: 00:38:14

I mean, the one thing I will say, right, kind of being, you know, even for our

Scott: 00:38:17

YouTube channel for, for Watch With Walk With History, you know, kind of

Scott: 00:38:20

being the guy behind the scenes and, you know, trying my hand at, at, at, you

Scott: 00:38:24

know, Hobbyist cinematography, right?

Scott: 00:38:28

What I can teach myself.

Scott: 00:38:29

I did appreciate that.

Scott: 00:38:30

I mean, just the kind of the grand scale.

Scott: 00:38:32

That's why I really made the effort to go see it in the theater.

Scott: 00:38:35

This is absolutely like a ghost.

Scott: 00:38:37

Go see it in the theater type of movie.

Scott: 00:38:39

I love.

Scott: 00:38:40

I do love those.

Scott: 00:38:42

The grandiose feel of those battle scenes, whether or not they're accurate.

Scott: 00:38:46

I had no idea, right?

Scott: 00:38:48

but I, but I did appreciate him just purely from kind of like a Hollywood

Scott: 00:38:52

perspective of getting the scale and really honestly, like some of the

Scott: 00:38:57

carnage, you know, and one of the things that I was actually curious

Scott: 00:39:00

about was some of the battle tactics.

Scott: 00:39:02

At the end when they were doing the horse charge, and then I think it was the

Scott: 00:39:08

Was it the British that all of a sudden they, they kind of closed ranks around

Scott: 00:39:11

and the horses were running around them?

Scott: 00:39:13

Yeah.

Scott: 00:39:13

Is, is that, is that an actual tactic?

Mark: 00:39:15

That's an actual tactic, and that was what was done at the battlefield

Mark: 00:39:19

of Waterloo, but it's interesting to note that in the film, the British come

Mark: 00:39:24

out, out of their entrenchments to form Square, where the reality, if they had

Mark: 00:39:29

those entrenchments, they would probably be far safer In the entrenchments

Mark: 00:39:34

fending off cavalry then coming out dramatically and forming squares.

Mark: 00:39:38

So the, the British did form square at Waterloo and the French

Mark: 00:39:42

cavalry charged like 11 times and they didn't break the squares.

Mark: 00:39:47

So it was a, it was a pivotal moment in the battle.

Mark: 00:39:49

And the reason the cavalry charged was because Wellington, the Duke of

Mark: 00:39:54

Wellington, who commanded the British forces, he actually told his entire

Mark: 00:39:58

battle line to do an about face and to fall back a hundred paces.

Mark: 00:40:03

The French, Napoleon was ill during the Battle of Waterloo, and he left it to

Mark: 00:40:07

one of his subordinates Marshal Ney, and when Ney saw them Falling back.

Mark: 00:40:12

He felt they were in full retreat, so he immediately ordered the cavalry charge

Mark: 00:40:16

to pursue, which is the proper thing to do when you see an enemy retreating.

Mark: 00:40:21

You pursue them without letting them regroup or reform.

Mark: 00:40:24

That's one of the great roles of cavalry.

Mark: 00:40:26

And but it turns out that they were just retiring because they were getting such

Mark: 00:40:30

a pounding from the French artillery.

Mark: 00:40:33

And then they were able to successfully form squares and

Mark: 00:40:35

fend off the French cavalry.

Scott: 00:40:37

Yeah.

Scott: 00:40:38

And to me, that's, that's just something that kind of stuck out to me, you know,

Scott: 00:40:41

because it was just something I hadn't seen before and I wondered if that,

Scott: 00:40:45

that was one of the accurate things.

Scott: 00:40:47

So that's, that's actually kind of pretty neat to know.

Jenn: 00:40:48

Well, I had read that Ripley, Ripley Scott the reason why he fires

Jenn: 00:40:52

the cannons onto the pyramids that never happened is he just wanted to portray.

Jenn: 00:40:57

that Napoleon took Egypt.

Jenn: 00:40:59

And I'm like, okay, you probably could have portrayed that with him

Jenn: 00:41:02

show finding the Rosetta stone.

Jenn: 00:41:04

Here you go.

Jenn: 00:41:05

I took Egypt.

Jenn: 00:41:06

I found the Rosetta stone.

Jenn: 00:41:07

So without doing the cannons, but again, cinematography and I read

Jenn: 00:41:12

with the men dying in the water.

Jenn: 00:41:15

And so dramatically you wanted to show how Napoleon had no regard for life and

Jenn: 00:41:21

even the right and so and even at the end of the movie when they talk about all the

Jenn: 00:41:25

lives lost in all the battles that was really what we've got wanted to hit you

Jenn: 00:41:30

with was how much Napoleon had no regard for his soldiers lives and I'm like,

Scott: 00:41:36

like,

Mark: 00:41:38

Yeah, he didn't explain that terribly well.

Mark: 00:41:40

And I think those statistics were taken out of context to you know, the whole

Mark: 00:41:44

idea of him firing upon the pyramids.

Mark: 00:41:47

I mean, whatever.

Mark: 00:41:48

It's dramatic effect.

Mark: 00:41:49

It seemed like he was bored.

Mark: 00:41:51

It would walk in Phoenix's portrayal of Napoleon in that particular scene

Mark: 00:41:55

as the Mamelukes and the Ottomans were, like, doing their rallying to,

Mark: 00:42:00

to, about to fight the French, and then he fires the, at the top of the

Mark: 00:42:04

pyramids, and they collapse on the, the Mamelukes and, and kill some of them.

Mark: 00:42:08

Yeah, they, they forget to tell you that he brought 150 people to study Egypt.

Mark: 00:42:14

It is the foundation for Egyptology.

Mark: 00:42:16

You've already brought up the Rosetta Stone.

Mark: 00:42:18

Which will be deciphered by a Frenchman, Champollion.

Mark: 00:42:21

And you know, so many discoveries were made on that Egyptian campaign.

Mark: 00:42:26

And he didn't have to bring these 150 savants to do the study, but he

Mark: 00:42:29

did because he was an enlightened man who wanted to discover more

Mark: 00:42:33

about this forgotten civilization.

Mark: 00:42:36

And thanks to that we now know the history of the, of ancient

Mark: 00:42:40

Egypt and all that occurred.

Mark: 00:42:41

We've deciphered the hieroglyphs.

Mark: 00:42:44

And you know, a lot of these great pieces from antiquity and Egypt are

Mark: 00:42:48

for us to, to learn about I did like the scene where they uncover the

Mark: 00:42:53

sarcophagus and Napoleon puts the hat.

Mark: 00:42:56

There is a lithograph of Napoleon doing that and he's staring with his arms like

Mark: 00:43:02

this and he's staring, I think maybe.

Mark: 00:43:05

You know, without the caption there, it doesn't say anything, but I think

Mark: 00:43:09

maybe he's reflecting upon history that I, too, will be like this,

Mark: 00:43:14

this mummy here thousands of years.

Mark: 00:43:17

Will I be remembered?

Mark: 00:43:18

Will I be forgotten?

Mark: 00:43:19

What?

Mark: 00:43:20

impact will I have?

Mark: 00:43:22

So I really enjoyed that scene a tremendous amount.

Mark: 00:43:26

I did also like to see the, the gentleman of color who was one of

Mark: 00:43:31

his generals, because that's true.

Mark: 00:43:33

You had Mathieu Dumas, one of his cavalry commanders who was there, so I'm glad

Mark: 00:43:38

they, they showed him So, you know that transition in uniforms from the the french

Mark: 00:43:43

revolutionary uniform, which was the blue with the gold embroidery up upon the the

Mark: 00:43:49

red collar and cuffs that was nicely done.

Mark: 00:43:52

They showed that transition, through time.

Mark: 00:43:54

They also showed the transition with his hair You know, he did keep long

Mark: 00:43:58

hair until he comes back for the coup and then he cuts it and they call him

Mark: 00:44:03

the petit tendu the little shaven one So, but he cuts it in that Roman style,

Mark: 00:44:11

which is so very popular allotitis, as they called it in that time period.

Mark: 00:44:16

So, yeah, those things looked good.

Mark: 00:44:19

The one scene with Josephine's son, Eugène de Beauharnais wanting to get his father's

Mark: 00:44:24

saber back There's two versions to that.

Mark: 00:44:26

One is he's bringing his father's saber to give to to Napoleon.

Mark: 00:44:31

The other, obviously in this movie, he's taking it back, but, but the challenge

Mark: 00:44:36

of all those sabers in that room.

Mark: 00:44:39

The one they pick is actually an 1813 model and it was supposed to be 1794.

Scott: 00:44:46

that's funny.

Mark: 00:44:47

I mean, I think I know that it may be 10 other guys know that, but I was

Mark: 00:44:51

like, Oh my gosh, of the one you picked, I actually have a reproduction of it.

Mark: 00:44:56

I was like, wow.

Scott: 00:44:58

That's hilarious.

Scott: 00:44:58

Well, it's just like whenever Jen watches, Navy, \ , movies, and there's

Scott: 00:45:02

a helicopter in there, she's, she'll always say, like, a helicopter wouldn't

Scott: 00:45:05

do that, or they wouldn't do that.

Scott: 00:45:06

It's like, Jen.

Scott: 00:45:07

It's a movie.

Scott: 00:45:08

I give it up.

Jenn: 00:45:10

I know it's hard, but then like you think you just enjoy it for

Jenn: 00:45:14

the, for the cinematic version of it.

Jenn: 00:45:16

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:45:16

So, okay, Mark, overall, out of four stars?

Jenn: 00:45:21

, is it like a three star?

Jenn: 00:45:22

Is it a two star?

Jenn: 00:45:23

What, what are you thinking?

Mark: 00:45:25

So if we're going to use your four star rating system

Mark: 00:45:30

I'm going to give it one

Scott: 00:45:31

Oh

Jenn: 00:45:32

my gosh.

Jenn: 00:45:32

Okay.

Jenn: 00:45:33

All right.

Jenn: 00:45:33

Okay.

Jenn: 00:45:33

So what is your best depiction of Napoleon then?

Jenn: 00:45:36

If you could say,

Mark: 00:45:37

Oh,

Jenn: 00:45:38

could watch a movie.

Mark: 00:45:40

There are several and in fact, Le Figaro magazine, newspaper one

Mark: 00:45:46

of the biggest ones in France did a listing of the hundred best Napoleons

Mark: 00:45:51

in film and I, I don't want to, I don't want to brag, but I made number 27,

Scott: 00:45:57

All right.

Mark: 00:45:57

In, in my role with Vincent Castle in the, the Emperor of Paris

Mark: 00:46:02

and and Joaquin Phoenix was 28.

Scott: 00:46:10

There we go.

Scott: 00:46:11

That's

Mark: 00:46:12

There you go.

Scott: 00:46:13

little feather in your cap there.

Mark: 00:46:15

Exactly.

Mark: 00:46:16

So of the Napoleon films, my favorite film of all time is the

Mark: 00:46:21

1927 silent film called Napoleon.

Mark: 00:46:26

And that was directed by Abel Gance, and it was starring a

Mark: 00:46:30

man named Albert Dieudonné.

Mark: 00:46:33

And he really just nails that early Napoleon, that 17 from Toulon

Mark: 00:46:39

to the, the royalist uprising in 95 to the Italian campaign.

Mark: 00:46:44

That's really where it ends, but wow.

Mark: 00:46:47

He looks the part very well.

Mark: 00:46:49

There's also.

Jenn: 00:46:49

I'm sorry, is that American made?

Mark: 00:46:52

Well, Francis Ford Coppola remastered it, because, again, a

Mark: 00:46:56

1927 silent film, he remastered it in, I think, 1981 or 1983.

Mark: 00:47:03

It's being worked on again, and I think they're going to do another theatrical

Mark: 00:47:07

release which would be wonderful, but when that's going to come, I don't know.

Mark: 00:47:11

But that that's I have it on VHS that nobody's put it on DVD, which

Mark: 00:47:16

is just very bizarre But there's also another film directed by Abel Gance.

Mark: 00:47:21

And it's called Austerlitz and it's all about that battle and it stars Pierre

Mark: 00:47:26

Mondy who does a stellar performance as napoleon another napoleon that I

Mark: 00:47:32

like is the 1956 war and peace with audrey Burn and Henry Fonda, and

Mark: 00:47:38

that Napoleon is a Czech actor named Herbert Lohm who I think nails it.

Mark: 00:47:43

There's, of course, crowd favorites like Rod Steiger in the 1970 movie called

Mark: 00:47:49

Waterloo, which is all about that battle.

Mark: 00:47:51

That's incre Scott, if you want to see what the squares actually look like and

Mark: 00:47:56

how the battle actually unfolded, and I do have it on DVD if you'd like to borrow

Mark: 00:48:00

that It's it's magnificent though Rod Steiger doesn't really look so much like

Mark: 00:48:06

Napoleon, I think he still gave, gave Napoleon the credit that was due him, and

Mark: 00:48:12

there's of course Napoleon and Josephine, a love story which was made for television

Mark: 00:48:17

back in 19 1987, Armand Assante kills it.

Mark: 00:48:21

He's awesome.

Mark: 00:48:23

And Jacqueline Bissette as Josephine, she does a super job.

Mark: 00:48:27

So yeah, there's a few out there.

Mark: 00:48:30

And then, you know, there's a few bad ones

Jenn: 00:48:33

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:48:33

So one star.

Jenn: 00:48:34

Okay.

Jenn: 00:48:35

So I think, you know, hearing you say one star, I, I think I, I'm,

Jenn: 00:48:39

I was going to do two, but I'm thinking I'm one and a half now.

Jenn: 00:48:43

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:48:43

How about you, Scott?

Jenn: 00:48:44

How

Scott: 00:48:44

do you feel?

Scott: 00:48:45

So, you know, four, four stars doesn't compute to me.

Scott: 00:48:47

I'm used to a five star scale, but if we're going to go with four stars, I'll

Scott: 00:48:51

say two just because I, I kind of just, you know, for the general, the average

Scott: 00:48:55

movie movie go or the cinematography.

Scott: 00:48:58

And even though.

Scott: 00:49:00

To me, again, not kind of knowing the history or the facts or kind of what was

Scott: 00:49:05

right or what was wrong, like there was stuff that was just, it just felt like it

Scott: 00:49:09

was missing that tying the story together.

Scott: 00:49:12

But I, I did enjoy just kind of the representation of, of the, of the

Scott: 00:49:16

era, right, of showing Napoleon the costumes and kind of the battles

Scott: 00:49:20

and a lot of that stuff was just.

Scott: 00:49:22

Again, the pure Hollywood movie kind of bigness of it, you know,

Scott: 00:49:27

for lack of a more sophisticated way to describe a movie.

Scott: 00:49:31

I just, I did enjoy

Jenn: 00:49:32

that aspect of it.

Jenn: 00:49:33

I just missed the mark.

Jenn: 00:49:33

And honestly, in Mark, you'll probably, he doesn't even talk with a French accent.

Jenn: 00:49:38

It's like, Hey, what's up?

Jenn: 00:49:40

I'm Napoleon.

Scott: 00:49:41

Yeah.

Scott: 00:49:47

Well, we want to.

Mark: 00:49:47

you know what?

Mark: 00:49:48

You know, maybe we can revisit this scaling system because supposedly Apple

Mark: 00:49:53

TV's gonna put out a four hour version of

Scott: 00:49:56

Oh,

Mark: 00:49:57

Have you heard about that?

Jenn: 00:49:58

The director's

Scott: 00:49:59

cut.

Scott: 00:49:59

Oh, are

Mark: 00:50:00

the director's cut, which maybe will be more inclusive

Mark: 00:50:03

to help the narrative along.

Mark: 00:50:05

And, you know, maybe we will see him talking about his reforms.

Mark: 00:50:09

The, the code Seville or the code, the creation of the B De France

Mark: 00:50:13

institutes for higher learning.

Scott: 00:50:15

An eye out for that.

Mark: 00:50:16

All those things would be interesting.

Mark: 00:50:18

And maybe the Italian campaign, that would be nice.

Mark: 00:50:20

Maybe some of those love letters, because that's when he wrote

Mark: 00:50:23

all of those love letters.

Mark: 00:50:24

Maybe the Marengo campaign of 1800, after he gets back from Egypt and the

Mark: 00:50:29

Austrians had taken back all that he had conquered in 1796 and 97 maybe

Mark: 00:50:34

the the The reasoning behind the why Austerlitz was fought, you know, throwing

Mark: 00:50:40

out the Navy that nobody talked about Trafalgar or you know, that was really

Mark: 00:50:45

the catalyst that brought Napoleon from the coast to invade England to go

Mark: 00:50:50

inland into Eastern Europe to fight the Austrians and the Russians at Austerlitz.

Mark: 00:50:55

So, yeah, I mean, it would be nice if if, you know, he could introduce

Mark: 00:50:59

some of those different things to, to help with the narrative.

Mark: 00:51:03

I think that would be very helpful for a guest or someone watching that doesn't

Mark: 00:51:08

really know too much about Napoleon.

Scott: 00:51:10

Yeah.

Scott: 00:51:10

We'll have to revisit that.

Scott: 00:51:11

Well, hopefully,

Jenn: 00:51:11

if he listens to this podcast before he does his cut, he can edit

Scott: 00:51:16

all of that.

Scott: 00:51:17

I'm sure it's

Mark: 00:51:18

Well, if Ridley is watching this I love Ridley Scott.

Mark: 00:51:23

I think he's a brilliant director.

Mark: 00:51:25

The Duelists is his first major motion picture that came out in 1977.

Mark: 00:51:31

Still one of my favorites based on a Joseph Conrad short story called The Duel.

Mark: 00:51:35

I love Gladiator.

Mark: 00:51:37

I love Kingdom of Heaven.

Mark: 00:51:39

Black Hawk Down.

Mark: 00:51:40

I mean, fantastic.

Mark: 00:51:43

I, I, I certainly don't want Ridley to hate me for not, for only giving

Mark: 00:51:49

him one star, and as far as Joaquin Phoenix you know, he doesn't need

Mark: 00:51:53

my approval or not, he's a great actor, he's an Academy Award winner.

Mark: 00:51:58

You know, just, again, I can't see the forest through the trees.

Mark: 00:52:01

I, I talk about Napoleon every single day.

Mark: 00:52:05

I've got his books all around me.

Mark: 00:52:06

So, I, I think I'm just too involved there.

Mark: 00:52:09

But if Vanessa Kirby is watching she was fabulous.

Scott: 00:52:15

I think a lot of people, you know, and again, I don't go online and read

Scott: 00:52:19

like movie reviews and all that stuff.

Scott: 00:52:20

But I think a lot of people will kind of agree with that general sentiment.

Scott: 00:52:23

I mean, Joaquin phoenix, nobody's gonna argue that, the director

Scott: 00:52:28

and the actors are all incredible.

Scott: 00:52:30

. But I do think that she actually, I think she stole the show,

Scott: 00:52:34

between the larger than life characters that were in this movie.

Scott: 00:52:37

She, , even to me again, not knowing this, she was incredible.

Scott: 00:52:41

She played all the parts, all the different stages , very well.

Scott: 00:52:44

, and to me, honestly, her character to me.

Scott: 00:52:47

Probably felt the most believable.

Scott: 00:52:49

Yes,

Scott: 00:52:49

And that my friends wraps up our deep dive into Ridley Scott's epic portrayal

Scott: 00:52:55

of Napoleon Bonaparte It's a film that like its protagonist is ambitious complex

Scott: 00:53:00

and bound to spark debate We've, we've sifted through the historical facts

Scott: 00:53:06

and cinematic flourishes, explored the director's vision, and delved into

Scott: 00:53:10

the nuances of Napoleon's character.

Scott: 00:53:13

Now whether you're a history buff or a film enthusiast or simply captivated

Scott: 00:53:17

by larger than life figures, we hope This episode is shed some light on

Scott: 00:53:21

this captivating portrayal of one of history's most fascinating figures.

Scott: 00:53:25

We encourage you to continue the conversation.

Scott: 00:53:28

Let us know in the comments on YouTube, and let us know what

Scott: 00:53:30

you thought about the movie.

Scott: 00:53:31

Now, Mark, for those who might want to find you or your work, is there a kind of

Scott: 00:53:36

a best place for people to kind of either reach out to you or find you online?

Mark: 00:53:41

Absolutely.

Mark: 00:53:42

So, at Colonial Williamsburg, if you'd like to see the Marquis de Lafayette,

Mark: 00:53:46

we have our schedule online, so you can find out when I'm doing what we call

Mark: 00:53:49

public audiences or when I'm in town.

Mark: 00:53:52

I'm usually in town five days a week.

Mark: 00:53:54

But this weekend coming up, if you are in the Czech Republic in

Mark: 00:53:58

the southeastern corner by Brno, I will be Napoleon at the Battle of

Mark: 00:54:02

Austerlitz, his greatest victory.

Mark: 00:54:06

So come out, turn out for that.

Mark: 00:54:08

You can follow me on Instagram Napoleon in America.

Mark: 00:54:12

And I put up all pictures and videos of the different

Mark: 00:54:16

things that I do in character.

Mark: 00:54:18

So look for me there, I.

Scott: 00:54:20

Yeah, well, thank you so much again for joining us, Mark, and for

Scott: 00:54:22

those listening, remember to reach out to us at our website, talkwithhistory.

Scott: 00:54:26

com, but more importantly, if you know someone else that might enjoy

Scott: 00:54:29

this podcast, please share it with them, especially if you think today's

Scott: 00:54:32

Napoleon topic would interest a friend, even if they haven't seen

Scott: 00:54:36

the movie or if they have, especially if they have seen the movie, you

Scott: 00:54:39

got to send this episode to them.

Scott: 00:54:40

Shoot them a text, tell them to look us up.

Scott: 00:54:42

We rely on you, our community, to grow, and we appreciate you all.

Scott: 00:54:46

Every day.

Scott: 00:54:46

We'll talk to you next time.

Scott: 00:54:48

Thank you.