Episode 113

Visiting Normandy American Cemetery: Roosevelts, Niland brothers, and Others

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We explore the Normandy American Cemetery, commemorating the fallen heroes of World War I and WWII. We highlight personal stories, including Quentin and Theodore Roosevelt III, the Niland Brothers, members of the 6888th Central Postal Directory Battalion, and more. We share their personal connection to Lieutenant Harry Wagner of Penn State.

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🎥 Video from Normandy

📍Normandy American Cemetery

🎙️ Mary McLeod Bethune and the 6888th Postal Batallion

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Transcript
Scott:

We were flying high above the French countryside on July

Scott:

14th, 1918, a day that would forever be etched in my memory.

Scott:

The sun was just beginning to rise, casting a golden hue

Scott:

across the landscape below.

Scott:

I glanced over at Quentin Roosevelt, the youngest son of the former

Scott:

president, who was flying his Newport 28, the fighter beside me.

Scott:

His face was set with determination, a look I had come to recognize

Scott:

during our many sorties together.

Scott:

Quentin and I had become fast friends since he joined the 95th Air squadron.

Scott:

Despite his famous lineage, he was just another pilot to us.

Scott:

Eager to do his part in the war effort.

Scott:

We had flown numerous missions together, each one more perilous than the last,

Scott:

but today, something felt different.

Scott:

There was an air of tension that I just couldn't shake.

Scott:

We had been tasked with a patrol over the Marne River in an area

Scott:

teeming with German activity.

Scott:

Our orders were simple.

Scott:

Engage and disrupt their operations.

Scott:

As we neared our patrol zone, I spotted a formation of German

Scott:

Fokker deep in the forest.

Scott:

There were, they were outnumbering us, but we had faced worse odds before.

Scott:

The air became thick with the sound of machine gun fire as we engaged the enemy.

Scott:

Quentin and I maneuvered our planes with precision, weaving

Scott:

through the sky in deadly dance.

Scott:

I saw Quentin take down one of the German fighters, a plume of smoke trailing from

Scott:

its engine as it spiraled to the ground.

Scott:

He gave me a quick thumbs up, a brief moment of triumph amidst the chaos.

Scott:

But then, out of the corner of my eye, I saw a German fighter

Scott:

bearing down on Quentin's six.

Scott:

I shouted a warning.

Scott:

It was morning, but the roar of our engines drowned out my voice.

Scott:

The enemy pilot opened fire and I watched in horror as Quinten's

Scott:

plane shuddered under the impact.

Scott:

Smoke and flames erupted from his engine and his fighter

Scott:

began to lose altitude rapidly.

Scott:

Bail out, I yelled, hoping against hope that he could

Scott:

hear me, but it was too late.

Scott:

His plane was in a steep dive and I saw him struggle to regain control.

Scott:

The ground rushed up to meet him and with a sickening thud, his

Scott:

plane crashed into the field below.

Scott:

I wanted to go after him.

Scott:

And to see if there was any chance he had survived that the battle raged on

Scott:

around me, I had to keep fighting, knowing that my own life hung in the balance.

Scott:

It was only after me and the others had driven off the remaining German

Scott:

fighters that I was able to break away and make my way to the crash site.

Scott:

When I arrived, my worst fears were confirmed.

Scott:

Quentin's plane was a twisted wreck and there was no sign of movement.

Scott:

I knew that his death would be devastating blow to his family, especially to his

Scott:

father who had already endured so much.

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Quentin Roosevelt died that day, but his bravery and spirit lived on in

Scott:

the hearts of those who knew him.

Scott:

He had given his life for his country, a sacrifice that would be

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remembered long after the war was over.

Scott:

The news of Quentin's death spread quickly, and the rumor was that

Scott:

even the German pilots who engaged us that day paid their respects.

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His loss was felt deeply by all who knew him, a poignant

Scott:

reminder of the true cost of war.

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And as I took to the skies once more, I carried with me the

Scott:

memory of Quentin Roosevelt, a brave pilot and a true friend.

Scott:

Welcome to Talk With History.

Scott:

I'm your host, Scott, here with my wife and historian,

Jenn:

Hello.

Scott:

On this podcast, we give you insights to our history inspired

Scott:

world travels, YouTube channel journey, and examine history

Scott:

through deeper conversations with the curious, the explorers, and

Scott:

the history lovers out there.

Scott:

Now, Jen, this will be, I think, our second Normandy podcast, but

Scott:

before we get into that, I do have something for our listeners, some news.

Scott:

You guys may have heard that I'm trying some stuff out.

Scott:

I've got stuff coming down the pipe different Potential premium podcasts

Scott:

and newsletter stuff I say all of that because we actually have one single place

Scott:

now where if you want to Talk to us if you want to chat with us if you want to

Scott:

comment on these podcasts you can go to the history road trip comm and there's

Scott:

a place for us to chat there So that's gonna that'll be my centralized place for

Scott:

anybody who wants to ask questions about the podcast or Who wants to say hey, I

Scott:

love this part of it or whatever it is You can find us over at the history road trip.

Scott:

com And there's a chat function over there And we'll have just a running

Scott:

chat and you can see other people talking about the episode as well.

Scott:

So it's a really neat thing that we're starting up that's part of

Scott:

this new kind of newsletter and extra podcasts that's coming in the future.

Scott:

So if you want to chat with us about these episodes.

Scott:

What I'm going to do is after each one airs, I'll start a running

Scott:

chat about what people thought about the most recent episode.

Scott:

You can drop us a line over there.

Scott:

You can say hello.

Scott:

You can follow along with other things that I'll be publishing over there more.

Scott:

in depth travel type stuff.

Scott:

But also a place for us to chat with our podcast listeners.

Scott:

So because there's no universal comments, you can't comment on a podcast in

Scott:

Apple podcast or anything like that.

Scott:

That will be the place for, for folks to come in and chat with us.

Jenn:

sounds great.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

So that's the history road trip.

Scott:

com.

Scott:

That's the history road trip.

Scott:

com.

Jenn:

The History Road, trip

Scott:

The, the, the history road trip dot com.

Scott:

So we, last week we talked about gold beach, right?

Scott:

That was your first day at Normandy and on your second day during, like on actual

Scott:

D day, the actual 80th anniversary, but I think it was, I believe it was before you

Scott:

went to the kind of ceremonies and stuff.

Scott:

You went over to the Normandy.

Scott:

American Cemetery, and you got to visit some, some gravesites

Scott:

of some pretty well known

Scott:

historical

Scott:

figures over there.

Jenn:

So that actually was the day of the 80th ceremony.

Jenn:

It was.

Jenn:

Because there were so many heads of state and government officials

Jenn:

that were going to be at this 80th anniversary ceremony at the Normandy

Jenn:

American Cemetery, we had to be there about Five six hours before it started.

Jenn:

We had to go through security, go through tents, have everything

Jenn:

checked, have our credentials with us.

Jenn:

And so I had a lot of time at that cemetery and and made a video from there,

Jenn:

which I wanted to do anyway, but because this was such a busy, crowded weekend,

Jenn:

the first day we were in Normandy, we were supposed to go to the Normandy

Jenn:

American cemetery, but it was, they closed it because so many people were there.

Scott:

Okay.

Jenn:

So I was able to do it that day.

Jenn:

So it's, I'm there the day of the 80th anniversary,

Scott:

Yeah, you were there on June 6,

Jenn:

more significant when I got to put sand from Omaha Beach into a specific

Jenn:

grave that we'll talk about my connection to It made it that much more significant

Jenn:

to be able to do that that day.

Jenn:

So yes, I'm there on the actual anniversary of D Day

Scott:

it was, it was really neat.

Scott:

And we're going to talk about these not in exactly the order you got to visit them.

Scott:

And then we'll, we'll talk about the one tie you have to one of the graves

Scott:

there that you actually got to, and, and, and rub sand in and, and some

Scott:

of the local news coverage, I'll call it that, that came out of that.

Scott:

But first we're going to talk there's a fair amount and

Scott:

you bring it up in the video.

Scott:

There's a fair amount of siblings essentially that are, that are buried

Jenn:

well first let's talk about what it is.

Jenn:

So this is a American cemetery in in France.

Jenn:

And it is run by America.

Jenn:

And even though it's not American soil, they have plants and things

Jenn:

that are indigenous to America.

Jenn:

And it is all paid for by Americans.

Jenn:

So there's only Americans buried in the cemetery.

Scott:

realize that

Jenn:

And it was established pretty shortly after D Day, so June 8th, 1944.

Jenn:

So as you can, Probably imagine a lot of men were dying and

Jenn:

they needed to bury these men.

Jenn:

And so the Normandy American cemetery actually overlooks Omaha beach.

Jenn:

It's the bluff above Omaha beach.

Jenn:

It covers 172 acres.

Jenn:

It contains 9, 388 burials.

Jenn:

All Americans, all but one is from World War II.

Jenn:

And we'll talk about that one.

Jenn:

That's from World War

Jenn:

I.

Scott:

the only

Jenn:

He's the only

Jenn:

one.

Jenn:

Everybody else is from World War II.

Jenn:

Now, there's been a recent burial as recent, I'd say 2018, who was the twin

Jenn:

brother of one of the men who were buried there from the D Day timeframe.

Jenn:

But he also served in World War II, and he wanted to be with his brother.

Jenn:

So there's some specifics, even if you want to be buried

Scott:

Yeah, so I actually went to the website and I looked it up.

Scott:

The most, the most recent burial, this is when I checked the website like a week

Scott:

ago, was actually in October of 2022.

Scott:

And it was he would, I mean, they said Air Force, but it was Army Air Corps

Scott:

back then, but they found him and they buried him almost 80 years, almost,

Scott:

78 years, after, after he passed.

Jenn:

where they asked all next of kin, everybody who's buried there,

Jenn:

they've asked, they asked all next of kin, would you rather have Your

Jenn:

family member Repatriated back home or buried with his comrades here on

Jenn:

French soil in an American cemetery

Jenn:

Yes, so families everybody who's buried there besides the unknowns are were

Jenn:

agreed to have them buried there So again, it's established two days after D Day.

Jenn:

It is a pretty Amazing place what's interesting about the

Jenn:

Normandy American Cemetery?

Jenn:

Is there only really two types of, I would say, markers?

Jenn:

It's really just crosses and stars of David, because the army at the

Jenn:

time only recognized Latin crosses for Protestants and Catholics.

Jenn:

And then there's stars of David for the, for Jewish religion.

Jenn:

And so these are the only three religions recognized at the

Jenn:

time by the United States army.

Jenn:

So no other types of markers are present.

Jenn:

Okay.

Jenn:

So that's all you see

Scott:

So I actually noticed that, but I didn't understand the reasoning why.

Scott:

So that's neat.

Jenn:

It's very neat.

Jenn:

Now, you will see some markers have the gold Lettering those

Jenn:

will be Medal of Honor recipients and then everything is in white.

Jenn:

It's white marble with white etching of the actual marker connotation names

Jenn:

and specific dates and regiments.

Jenn:

But what people do is they take sand and we'll rub it in to that marker.

Jenn:

So that's what you see sometimes when you're able to read it a lot more clearly

Jenn:

. Scott: Cause it's, it's very difficult and you can see it in the video.

Jenn:

You, it's, it's difficult to read without something there.

Jenn:

Cause it's just white engraving and it's not like it's a, there's dark

Jenn:

underneath, when they engrave it.

Jenn:

So when you rub the sand in there, it's almost like a, like you're taking

Jenn:

like a, like a tracing paper, right?

Jenn:

And you're just rubbing a coal on it and you're doing the same thing.

Jenn:

You're filling those, those gaps in and all of a sudden you can read the

Jenn:

name, you can read the rank, you can read the regiment, whatever that is.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

And it makes it a lot more clear to read if you're walking by and

Jenn:

you can see that in our videos that some have the sand in it.

Jenn:

It's sand from Omaha beach.

Jenn:

Now, not all of these men fell on Omaha beach, but it's pretty

Jenn:

significant timeframe from.

Jenn:

D day to the end of August.

Jenn:

Anyone who basically was killed in theater in that area was buried there at Normandy.

Jenn:

And you, you have some even later, but it was really in that general vicinity.

Jenn:

And all together, there's 307 unknown, and then the 9, 388 total.

Jenn:

But there is a statue there that's pretty famous.

Jenn:

We weren't able to get close to it because that's where the ceremony

Jenn:

took place around and they brought out over a hundred World War II

Jenn:

vets and they were all right by the statue, but the statue is beautiful.

Jenn:

It's called the spirit of American youth rising from the waves.

Jenn:

And it is beautiful.

Jenn:

It looks like a young man in the prime of his life, rising from the waves.

Jenn:

And so it really is a reminder of the sacrifice of these

Jenn:

men and this for women there.

Jenn:

But if these men and women in the prime of their life who gave everything for, for

Jenn:

freedom, for America, for a way of life, and they're buried there at France and so

Jenn:

in France and the French people are just so appreciative and respectful of that.

Jenn:

It's a beautiful ceremony, a beautiful cemetery.

Jenn:

Things are very much in rows.

Jenn:

It makes it very easy to navigate.

Jenn:

And there is a kind of a center lake that you don't see because they put

Jenn:

all of our chairs over this lake.

Jenn:

It's like a reflecting pool.

Jenn:

And then it's like a little rotunda in the middle that has some.

Jenn:

words around it.

Jenn:

But basically it's very, it's a very serene, basic layout.

Jenn:

And it just was such an honor to be there.

Jenn:

We had beautiful weather and they had the allied planes flying over

Jenn:

with the with the invasion markings.

Jenn:

So it just felt very, very good.

Jenn:

reminiscent of that day and a great way to honor these men.

Jenn:

The ceremony was beautiful.

Jenn:

Biden, president Biden spoke, president of France spoke French legions of

Jenn:

merit were handed out, which is the equivalent of the hour medal of honor.

Scott:

Oh, wow.

Jenn:

And they, he handed out 10, two men who were there on D day.

Jenn:

So that was pretty amazing.

Jenn:

And then at the very end, they played taps and the F 35 flew over and

Jenn:

they did the missing man formation, which is my favorite formation.

Jenn:

, it's basically five planes, and they.

Jenn:

Flying out and one, not, not the lead, but the second will shoot straight up.

Jenn:

And it's just a beautiful formation if you've ever seen it.

Jenn:

But with the F 35 doing it, it was, it was like watching like the bat.

Jenn:

mobile.

Jenn:

I was like, it's just, it was just so impressive.

Jenn:

It was amazing.

Jenn:

It was a couple of times it brought tears to my eyes and that was one of them.

Jenn:

So in making the video, there were a couple of graves I wanted

Jenn:

to highlight there because there are brothers buried there.

Jenn:

There's uncles and nephews.

Jenn:

There's a father and son there.

Jenn:

And

Scott:

Now you mentioned that kind of the memorial kind of highlights, men

Scott:

in the primes, primes of their lives.

Scott:

However, one of the brothers that we're gonna talk about here when he

Scott:

landed at D-Day was not necessarily in, in the prime of his life.

Scott:

He was out there giving it his all and willing to sacrifice everything.

Scott:

But he specifically was, I think, like the oldest person to actually land

Scott:

physically and be on the beach at D Day.

Jenn:

yeah, so Theodore Roosevelt, the third, who you will hear called

Jenn:

Theodore, Theodore Roosevelt, Jr.

Jenn:

He's technically not a junior.

Jenn:

He's a third was 56 years old

Scott:

Yeah, so he was a one star.

Jenn:

and he was a one star.

Jenn:

He's the highest ranking officer to hit the beach on D Day.

Jenn:

And he leads from the front.

Jenn:

He is, he really was part of the planning of the evasion.

Jenn:

And so he wanted to be out there leading logistics.

Jenn:

He dies at 56, a little bit later, July 12th, 1944.

Jenn:

So about a month and six days after D Day.

Jenn:

And he dies from a heart attack, which It was not uncommon at the time.

Jenn:

You're going to see, we've talked about Egan from Masters of the Air.

Jenn:

He will die of a heart attack.

Jenn:

These men who are under a lot of stress, you can imagine, plus we don't

Jenn:

understand the importance of high blood pressure at the time and keeping that

Jenn:

under control and a low salt diet and those things have not been identified

Jenn:

yet as what could cause heart disease.

Jenn:

And yes, Theodore Roosevelt will die of a heart attack at 56 years

Jenn:

old, and he's buried there at the Normandy American Cemetery.

Jenn:

And when I talked about the one soldier from World War One who's buried there

Jenn:

is his brother, Quentin Roosevelt, who fought in World War One and was killed in

Jenn:

World War One, was also buried in France.

Jenn:

But Theodore is buried at that cemetery, they move Quentin to be beside him.

Jenn:

So you'll see in the video, Theodore has the Medal of Honor

Jenn:

marker with the gold lettering.

Jenn:

Quentin's beside him.

Jenn:

Both of them are crosses.

Jenn:

It says, says Roosevelt's and they're one of the sets of brothers

Jenn:

that are buried side by side.

Jenn:

There's 45 sets of brothers in the cemetery.

Jenn:

33 are buried side by side and they're one of them.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

So it was interesting because for our listeners, they actually

Scott:

are open, my opening vignette that they've already heard is a

Scott:

depiction of when Quentin goes down.

Scott:

And so I, we, I wrote it from the perspective of someone who was flying

Scott:

with him Quentin had this reputation, and again, this is during world war one.

Scott:

So not long after his father had finished being president.

Scott:

And.

Scott:

He had to fight that reputation of being the president's kid.

Scott:

And then eventually, I guess he did overcome that and was actually

Scott:

a pretty decent pilot was well respected amongst his peers.

Scott:

And I believe even when he died in aerial combat, I think it was the

Scott:

Germans who had, who had shot him down, but even those in Germany

Scott:

actually took notice and expressed their almost condolences, respect.

Scott:

Yeah, respect is probably the best way to say it because of his father and

Scott:

because of what they knew that the family had endured right at the turn of the

Scott:

century and coming into into World War

Jenn:

So he was the youngest son.

Jenn:

He's the youngest son of the 26th president.

Jenn:

He's the first lieutenant at the time.

Jenn:

So you can imagine he's young, it's been in less than four years and he's with

Jenn:

the 95th airplane squadron shot down.

Jenn:

During World War one with and this is when you get like Bloody Red Baron.

Jenn:

This is when aerial Combat is really coming into its own.

Jenn:

So he is well respected Because here is basically the leader of America and his

Jenn:

son is in the fight And you're gonna see that often You know Kennedy His

Jenn:

brother is also killed in World War Two.

Jenn:

So it is significant that these leaders of America are, their sons

Jenn:

are also out there in the fight.

Jenn:

And Theodore Roosevelt's a perfect example of it.

Jenn:

He's a general, but leading from the front,

Scott:

Yeah, and during world and he had actually been in I believe during

Scott:

World War one as well But he had I think he was he was an army guy, right?

Scott:

So he wasn't a pilot.

Scott:

So he was he was somewhere

Jenn:

4th Infantry

Scott:

Yeah, so he was somewhere else fighting during World War one.

Scott:

He ended up getting out He was a politician did some stuff for a while

Scott:

like Secretary of the Navy and this that and the other and during World War Or

Scott:

right around the turn of World War Two to came back in and then, he was a one

Scott:

star and he was out there with Patton and all this crazy stuff and Here he

Scott:

is and they'll hear it in the second vignette that I have because I write it

Scott:

from the perspective Of his aid, right?

Scott:

And he's actually like hiding the fact from the army that he's got

Scott:

arthritis and he needs a cane, so Here he is Leave it to Teddy Roosevelt's,

Scott:

I think he was his oldest son.

Scott:

Is Theodore Roosevelt, was Theodore Roosevelt Jr.

Scott:

He was the oldest son.

Scott:

Leave it to him to be just like his father out there, charging

Scott:

the beaches of Normandy with a cane, and hiding heart problems.

Scott:

I mean, they're, they're those Roosevelt's man.

Scott:

They, they knew how to just say bully and keep going.

Jenn:

very much like his

Jenn:

So it's almost, it's such an honor to visit their graves.

Scott:

was really cool.

Jenn:

Because of the, we love Teddy Roosevelt.

Jenn:

We've covered him on the channel.

Jenn:

We've been to his inauguration site in Buffalo.

Jenn:

He's the youngest person to ever become president of the United States.

Jenn:

And again, leading from the front adventurer and his two sons, his

Jenn:

oldest and his youngest are a Both gave their lives in the war and

Jenn:

they're buried beside each other there at that Normandy American Cemetery.

Jenn:

It was an honor to visit both of them.

Scott:

Each telegram I received in early 1944 held the weight of

Scott:

a family's heartbreak, a mother's tears, and a father's silent grief.

Scott:

But nothing prepared me for the day I received the telegrams about the brothers.

Scott:

It was a warm afternoon when the first telegram arrived.

Scott:

It was brought to me with the usual sense of dread, bracing myself

Scott:

for the all too normal verbiage.

Scott:

We regret to inform you that Sergeant Robert Nyland has been killed in action.

Scott:

The words seem to hang in the air, heavy and oppressive.

Scott:

This being his hometown telegraph office for the war effort,

Scott:

I had actually known Robert.

Scott:

He was a good man, brave and kind.

Scott:

My heart ached for his family, but there was no time to dwell on personal feelings.

Scott:

Not an hour had passed when another telegram came.

Scott:

My jaw dropped as I read it.

Scott:

We regret to inform you that Lieutenant Preston Nyland has been killed in action.

Scott:

Brothers, both lost to the ravages of war.

Scott:

I felt a wave of nausea wash over me.

Scott:

How could I possibly convey this to their family?

Scott:

How could any parent bear such news?

Scott:

The room seemed to close in around me as I sat at my desk, the two telegrams

Scott:

lying before me like silent specters.

Scott:

I thought of their mother and father, both of whom I knew personally,

Scott:

of the unbearable pain that would endure upon receiving these messages.

Scott:

The weight of my duty pressed down upon me, and I felt the crushing

Scott:

responsibility of being the bearer of such devastating news.

Scott:

I took a deep breath, steeling myself for the task ahead.

Scott:

The Nyland family deserved to know the truth, as painful as it was.

Scott:

As I prepared to deliver the telegrams, I thought of all the

Scott:

families who had received similar messages, of the countless lives

Scott:

forever altered by the cruelty of war.

Scott:

It was a sobering reminder of the sacrifices made by so many, and the

Scott:

incredible strength of the human spirit in the face of unimaginable loss.

Scott:

The Nyland Brothers story would later inspire books and movies on

Scott:

this dark period of world history, a testament to their bravery and the

Scott:

profound impact of their sacrifice.

Scott:

But on that day, in the quiet of my office, they were simply two

Scott:

young men who had given their lives for their country, and my heart

Scott:

broke for them and their family.

Scott:

Yeah, it was pretty cool.

Scott:

And now one of the next set, another set of brothers that you actually went

Scott:

to go visit were the Nyland brothers.

Scott:

Now these are the brothers that kind of were part of the

Scott:

inspiration for Saving Private Ryan.

Jenn:

Saving Private Ryan is loosely based on these brothers stories

Jenn:

because it was four brothers and one of them had already was in the Pacific

Jenn:

theater and had been lost at sea.

Jenn:

They thought he was killed in action.

Jenn:

He was actually captured.

Jenn:

And then these two brothers who were buried at the Normandy American

Jenn:

cemetery one was killed on June 7th.

Jenn:

The other one was killed on June 6th.

Jenn:

So one actually died on D Day.

Jenn:

Robert will die on D Day and then Preston dies the next day.

Jenn:

And when the mother is getting these telegrams thinking that her son

Jenn:

is missing in action and the two other sons are killed in action,

Jenn:

the army takes notice and doesn't want to present her with a fourth.

Jenn:

She has four boys out there.

Jenn:

So that's what saving private Ryan is about to get the fourth boy home, right?

Jenn:

They don't want her to have lost all four of her boys in the war.

Jenn:

And.

Jenn:

That's basically what happens.

Jenn:

The fourth son is found.

Jenn:

And, he fought through the first couple of days of the Normandy campaign.

Jenn:

And then nine days following D Day, he had gone to the 82nd Airborne

Jenn:

Division to see his brother, Bob.

Jenn:

And once he arrived there, he was told that Bob had been killed.

Jenn:

And then he was shipped back to England and then back to the U.

Jenn:

S.

Jenn:

So it wasn't like somebody had found him.

Jenn:

It wasn't like they searched him.

Scott:

wasn't quite like the movie where they were looking, they sent a unit to go

Jenn:

Yes.

Jenn:

He went to find his brother, found out his brother was killed, and that's when

Jenn:

they're like, we need to send you home.

Jenn:

And so he ends up getting the bronze star for his service.

Jenn:

And then Stephen Ambrose writes about it in Band of Brothers,

Jenn:

and that's where it goes.

Jenn:

Saving Private Ryan is loosely based on him.

Jenn:

And then the second brother he's imprisoned in the Japanese POW camp.

Jenn:

He was captured May 16th, 1944.

Jenn:

So less than a month before D

Scott:

Oh, yeah.

Scott:

So he was already reported.

Scott:

They already thought he was

Jenn:

Yes, they already thought he was gone.

Jenn:

And so they did not know that he was a POW at the time.

Jenn:

So she ended up getting both of her boys back because he's

Jenn:

liberated May 4th, 1945, right?

Jenn:

About the time the war

Jenn:

is

Scott:

think he lives till the 80s or something like

Jenn:

Yeah, he lives them to 1984.

Jenn:

He dies at 71.

Jenn:

So she gets two of her boys back thinking that they're She

Jenn:

wasn't going to get him back.

Jenn:

And so the Niland brothers Preston and Bob are buried beside each other.

Jenn:

And like I said Bob was killed.

Jenn:

He's part of the 82nd Airborne Division.

Jenn:

He's killed in action on June 6th.

Jenn:

And then Preston, he's part of the 22nd Infantry Regiment and he's killed in

Jenn:

action on June 7th, both at Normandy.

Jenn:

And they're right beside each other.

Jenn:

It was a very, I won't, I hate to use the term, it was a very popular location.

Jenn:

People seemed to know about the Niland brothers.

Jenn:

And so there was a lot of people taking pictures

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

I mean, it was the same thing with the Roosevelts.

Scott:

Like even when you were out there filming, there's, like you said, there

Scott:

was a lot more people there than normal.

Scott:

So you could see where the popular spots were.

Scott:

The Roosevelt's were popular.

Scott:

The Nyland brothers were popular.

Scott:

Some ones, some gents we're going to talk about a little bit later.

Scott:

I think some folks were hovering around there, but this next one that

Scott:

you have a personal tie to, this one you had actually throughout the

Scott:

day, I think you would actually hit this one first before the ceremony.

Scott:

And if I remember correctly, Earlier in the day, they were limiting

Scott:

who all could visit the graves.

Scott:

And so they said, they was like, Hey, this is if you have a family tie of sorts.

Scott:

And so tell us about this, the grave site that you had a personal tie to.

Jenn:

Yeah, it was interesting.

Jenn:

The beginning of the day, and I want to remind people, there were thousands

Jenn:

of people who came to this ceremony.

Jenn:

Thousands.

Jenn:

So at the beginning of the day, they were trying to keep people off.

Jenn:

off of the graves area and looking for graves and, and commemorating

Jenn:

graves and being able to, being able to pay the respect at people's graves.

Jenn:

I didn't want them walking.

Jenn:

And I had a conversation with one of the women who were in charge of the cemetery.

Jenn:

And I asked her, why, why are you not letting people visit the graves?

Jenn:

They want to pay their respects.

Jenn:

And she goes, well, we don't want all the damage that all

Jenn:

these people are going to cause.

Jenn:

And I'm like, bring it on.

Jenn:

bring, let them be visited.

Jenn:

That's what these graves are for.

Jenn:

And I'm like, they never limit people visiting graves at Arlington.

Jenn:

You can tell which ones are more traveled than others, but that is never a deterrent

Jenn:

to stop people from from paying their respects to their fellow Americans.

Jenn:

And I think after having a talk with her, plus she just couldn't stop it.

Jenn:

There was so many

Jenn:

people

Scott:

too many.

Scott:

And I think even your tour guide, because you were with like a tour

Scott:

group, they're like, we've, we've never seen this many people here

Jenn:

they, yeah, this was the most people they've ever had for a ceremony.

Jenn:

So the beginning of the day, I had a talk with the cemetery keepers

Jenn:

and I told them that I'm connected to a Harry Wagner, Lieutenant Harry

Jenn:

Wagner from Penn State University.

Jenn:

And Because I was an ROTC student at Penn State University and all of ROTC

Jenn:

students are in one building at Penn State called the Wagner building.

Jenn:

And you, you just always knew all of your Penn State classes were there.

Jenn:

All your labs were there.

Jenn:

Anything you did military related, checking in, when you're a ROTC

Jenn:

student, you get your books there.

Jenn:

You, you're basically in the military, but not in the military.

Jenn:

So all of your.

Jenn:

administration, logistics are all there.

Jenn:

So basically I would say I was at the Wagner building pretty much every day.

Scott:

it's been, that building has been named after him for, 50, 60 years now.

Scott:

It's, I don't, I don't know when it was officially dedicated to him.

Scott:

I don't know if it was in the forties or the fifties, but.

Scott:

You think about how many people have done Penn State ROTC over the

Scott:

years, that's how many people have gone through and learned and started

Scott:

their military careers in the Wagner

Jenn:

Yes.

Jenn:

So it's dedicated in 1960.

Jenn:

So it's built in 1958, dedicated 1960.

Jenn:

I think they needed a dedicated ROTC building.

Jenn:

And they named it for a Penn State graduate who was there at

Jenn:

D Day and gave his life at D Day.

Jenn:

. And so to know Harry Edward Wagner was a 1941 Penn State graduate and

Jenn:

he served in the 82nd Airborne and he fought to liberated France on D Day.

Jenn:

He was there on June 6th.

Jenn:

He was part of the men who jumped early, early morning of June 6th, 1944.

Jenn:

Now, He doesn't get killed on D Day.

Jenn:

He's actually killed about a month later on June 27th, 1944, but like I said, this

Jenn:

Normandy Cemetery was used pretty much for anybody who was killed in the area

Jenn:

from D Day to about the end of August, September and even people still today.

Jenn:

And so it was three weeks after the landing behind enemy lines

Jenn:

that he was actually killed in action on June 28th, 1944.

Jenn:

And so his grave is there.

Jenn:

And I was able to find it.

Jenn:

I was able to walk out to it.

Jenn:

with a cemetery representative who brought sand from Omaha

Jenn:

beach,

Scott:

she had a little bucket.

Jenn:

a bucket of sand.

Jenn:

And this is when I say, you can't really read the markers

Jenn:

unless something is in it.

Jenn:

And then when you put the sand in it and you'll see in the video,

Jenn:

how much of a difference it makes.

Jenn:

And so we were able to do that and then we were able to leave a Penn State flag.

Jenn:

Each grave was already adorned with an American flag and a French flag, but

Jenn:

I was able to leave a Penn State flag for where I, it meant a lot to me.

Jenn:

If you're a Penn Stater, you understand how much this means.

Jenn:

It meant a lot to me to be able to do

Scott:

And the listener, you guys have to understand that Jen was dressed up

Scott:

in this little kind of pinup style.

Scott:

So she had her hair done up and she had her clothes were very that

Scott:

yellow was a yellow polka dot.

Jenn:

I wore red polka dots

Jenn:

like Rosie the

Scott:

Red polka dot that day And so she was kind of kind of done up and then

Scott:

there was like a French TV Station that was there that saw you guys going over

Scott:

and so they actually followed you guys and they can't be basically interviewed

Scott:

You briefly afterwards and so we found we actually found the clip or you did,

Scott:

and I say we, you went and found it.

Jenn:

Yeah, it was like local French news.

Jenn:

And what was interesting about it is they translate what I'm saying in to French.

Jenn:

But they they film Tom Hanks, because Tom Hanks was there with Steven Spielberg, of

Jenn:

course, their connection to World War Two, Band of Brothers and Saving Private Ryan.

Jenn:

But they filmed Tom Hanks and what Tom Hanks felt about the day.

Jenn:

And then they cut to me and putting the sand in the grave and then

Jenn:

how I felt about that experience.

Jenn:

So I was like, wow, France sees me equivalent to Tom Hanks.

Scott:

It was just just a neat moment because it was so unexpected,

Scott:

but it meant a lot to you

Scott:

so

Jenn:

it was just, it was one of, probably the biggest honor I got that day.

Jenn:

Probably my whole time there.

Jenn:

It was such an honor to do that and to be able to do that for him.

Scott:

Now these, these next couple of folks we're going to talk about,

Scott:

they're not brothers in the traditional sense, but they are brothers in

Scott:

the, the, non traditional sense.

Scott:

And that's because they are both, part of, were part of Easy Company

Scott:

as part of the band of brothers,

Jenn:

Yes, there's four Band of brothers that are buried at this American

Jenn:

Normandy Cemetery and I saw two.

Jenn:

Again, we didn't have a lot of time to visit all of them.

Jenn:

I would have, but one is depicted in the show.

Jenn:

We saw Terrence Salty Harris, and he's depicted in the show when they do

Jenn:

theirthe mutiny in Alderborn and They don't want to be under anymore, and

Jenn:

Harris is transferred out of the unit.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

So if you, if you've, lots of folks have seen Band of Brothers, if you

Scott:

remember that scene where the NCOs are getting together and they're saying,

Scott:

we're not going to follow Sobel.

Scott:

So we're all going to sign these memos or the sign this letter

Scott:

essentially stating and we're going to route it up to chain of command.

Scott:

And then it cuts to the scene with the colonel, I forget the colonel's name.

Scott:

Band of Brothers: I ought to have you all shot.

Scott:

This is nothing less than an act of mutiny while we prepare for

Scott:

the goddamn invasion of Europe.

Scott:

Sergeant Harris.

Scott:

Sir.

Scott:

Turn in your stripes, collect your gear.

Scott:

You are hereby transferred out of my regiment.

Scott:

Sir.

Scott:

Get out.

Scott:

But he's like, he's I have to have all you guys shot.

Scott:

We're, we're preparing for the goddamn invasion to Normandy.

Scott:

He's yelling at these guys, letting them have it.

Scott:

And then the first person he cuts to that the camera cuts to, he goes,

Scott:

Sergeant Harris, turn your stripes.

Scott:

You are transferred out of my division.

Scott:

And that's him.

Jenn:

that's him.

Jenn:

Terrence Harris is 23 years old.

Jenn:

He was a part of Easy Company.

Jenn:

He wasn't after that, but he does make the jump on D Day, and he is

Jenn:

still part of the 101st Airborne but he ends up losing his life.

Jenn:

He is given the

Jenn:

It was an honor to visit him there.

Jenn:

So yes, he is depicted in Band of Brothers and he is, he is buried there

Jenn:

at , the Normandy American cemetery.

Jenn:

And the other person we saw was

Scott:

Everett Gray.

Jenn:

Gray and he was 22 from California.

Jenn:

It's just, he, he's killed June 8th.

Jenn:

It's just so amazing to me the ages of these men.

Jenn:

That's why it was such a, when that statue talks about the, the sweet,

Jenn:

Youth, like giving the, giving your youth, like the spirit of American

Jenn:

youth it's just such a sacrifice.

Jenn:

You're giving your youth away.

Jenn:

And like I said, Terrence was 23, Gray's 22.

Jenn:

I just, these men never,

Jenn:

did they experience marriage?

Jenn:

They experienced children, like they get so much they never got to do.

Jenn:

And for me to be there and to pay my respects to them, I just,

Jenn:

I'm just so honored to have done

Scott:

Yeah, when you think about it, it really does put things in

Scott:

perspective because there's thousands upon thousands of men that lost

Scott:

their lives during World War II.

Scott:

And the vast majority of them are probably going to be in their 20s, and

Scott:

so when you, when you visit them over there in the location, where they lost

Scott:

their life in a place like Normandy.

Scott:

It's just that more impactful.

Scott:

Now, the last couple of folks, they are not brothers, but I

Scott:

would say, I would say that they were probably sisters in a sense.

Jenn:

So you're going to have four women in the cemetery, which I love

Jenn:

because it's just so important.

Jenn:

Women represent they fought in their respective areas.

Jenn:

You have nurses and these women were part of the six triple eight.

Jenn:

So the four women at this the American, the Normandy American Cemetery, three

Jenn:

or six, triple eight, one as a nurse.

Jenn:

And so I visit two women from the six, triple eight

Scott:

know, 6888 was, we've talked about them before.

Scott:

We actually probably multiple times.

Scott:

We have, I think we have a full another podcast episode that if I can find

Scott:

it, I'll put it in the show notes, but they were, the 6888 was the first,

Jenn:

African American women army corps, and it was a central

Jenn:

postal directory battalion.

Scott:

So they were brought in to help with this postal backlog that whatever

Scott:

mail unit couldn't figure it out.

Jenn:

years.

Jenn:

It was, I think it was like a year, two years of backlog of mail to

Jenn:

service members out there in Europe.

Scott:

Yeah so not only was this the first all black female unit, right?

Scott:

So first black female officer, this, this first of its kind, right?

Scott:

And think about the era in which they are operating, right?

Scott:

So they get there, they send them over to what?

Scott:

We may not think right that the outsider who's not involved in the

Scott:

military and we talked about this When we talked about the six triple

Scott:

a before Outside the military you're like, well, what's the big deal with

Scott:

the postal battalion like some backlog mail when you're deployed overseas?

Scott:

And especially for these men's who were there for years on end, right?

Scott:

Some of the bandit brothers were there for a couple

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

Not knowing when you're going to come

Scott:

not knowing when you're going to come home.

Scott:

They're writing letters home.

Scott:

They're hoping to receive letters wherever they are That, you and I have been on,

Scott:

nine month deployments before and getting a care package or a letter, right?

Scott:

And nowadays you can get emails.

Scott:

But when we first came in and when you, I first came in, email was not as

Scott:

common in getting a letter from home with a picture or whatever it is, was

Scott:

it just lifted your spirits so much and think about, this is world war two.

Scott:

So letters were the only option.

Scott:

That's the only way they could hear from their loved ones, from

Scott:

their friends, from whatever.

Scott:

And this unit comes in and does some amazing things to turn things

Jenn:

Within months.

Jenn:

So they come go to England first within months, they clear out all

Jenn:

the mail in England within a couple

Jenn:

months,

Scott:

takes three, they were expecting to, for it to take six to

Scott:

nine months and they did in three.

Jenn:

three.

Jenn:

And so they were so effective.

Jenn:

They sent them to France to the backlog of mail in France.

Jenn:

And again, so effective.

Jenn:

And they just, really excelled in what they were called to do.

Jenn:

And just really, I think just made women in the military, African American in

Jenn:

the women's military made them look so professional and so good at their job.

Scott:

I found a video online and it was, I think it was like Hollywood recognizing

Scott:

women of the 6888 or something like that.

Scott:

And so it's I don't know if it's Walter Cronkite and Terry Crews,

Scott:

these kind of well known actors and folks narrating this video, and it

Scott:

talks about an interaction that the unit had with the visiting general.

Scott:

And this visiting general comes in, and so Major Adams Charity Adams, she was the

Scott:

first black female commissioned officer.

Scott:

She was in charge of this, this unit.

Scott:

The general visited, She was supposed to have her unit out there for kind of

Scott:

inspection, so he could see, look and see it in their typical inspection uniforms

Scott:

or whatever it was, and he gave her a hard time because her entire unit wasn't there.

Scott:

Well, and she was explaining, well, they had their group.

Scott:

How we've been clearing this backlog is because we've been working in shifts and

Scott:

basically working 24 hours a day But in three shifts throughout the day, right

Scott:

and then for some reason they just whoever was doing it before I wasn't doing that

Scott:

and so she pushed back and he threatened he's oh, and Again, this is the 40s.

Scott:

He threatened to have a white officer come in come and take over the unit.

Scott:

And she, she told him right then and there, she said, over my dead body.

Scott:

And what I heard again, this was in the video about this general coming back

Scott:

later, I think a year later or something like that, after they had already turned

Scott:

everything around, they were sent off to the next spot to clear more mail somewhere

Scott:

else, was he actually came back and saw how well she had done, and actually.

Scott:

recognized her for that, recognized her excellence and said that

Scott:

he was wrong the first time.

Scott:

And I just like, of the time of that era, that's to me, that's so indicative of

Scott:

what can be accomplished in the military.

Scott:

Even then that's, that's in the crux of that's before really the civil

Scott:

rights movements and all that stuff.

Scott:

But in the military, you and I have talked about It things just matter

Scott:

a little bit less when you're in the same uniform you're doing the same

Scott:

thing You hold yourself to the same standards If you accomplish the mission

Scott:

and yet other person doesn't or if if you're holding yourself to that

Scott:

standard you're meeting the mission Leadership is going to be like, yeah,

Scott:

I don't care what you look like.

Scott:

I

Jenn:

Mm hmm.

Scott:

I don't care what your skin color is We talked about it with tuskegee

Scott:

airmen that was a big thing for the tuskegee airmen and the military.

Scott:

It's one of the things that I love You is a place for that to thrive and

Scott:

for that to really demonstrate itself.

Scott:

And so we've talked a lot about them, but let's say that the first first

Scott:

with Sergeant Dolores Brown, I believe.

Jenn:

So what had happened was there was a Jeep accident.

Jenn:

There were three of these women from the 6888 that were in a jeep

Jenn:

together and they had a jeep accident.

Jenn:

Two of them will die on July 8th, 1945.

Jenn:

And Dolores Brown, she'll die July 13th, 1945.

Jenn:

She holds on for five days, but then will succumb to her injuries.

Jenn:

So again, this is almost a year and a month after D Day.

Jenn:

So they're still utilizing this Cemetery 'cause people are still

Jenn:

over in the areas and doing work.

Jenn:

And again, they asked the next of kin, would you like them to

Jenn:

be repatriated back to America?

Jenn:

Or would you like them to be buried here with their brothers

Jenn:

and sisters in arms in France?

Jenn:

And that's what they decided.

Jenn:

So Dolores Brown will die on July 13th, 1945.

Jenn:

You have Mary Barlow who would die.

Jenn:

died July 8th, 1945, and Mary Bankston, who died July 8th, 1945, as well.

Jenn:

And they're all, I have 23, 22 and 24 years old.

Scott:

It was, it was really just neat to be able to show what these women did and

Scott:

show that they're buried next to the men who were right there in, in the theater

Scott:

or the, the theater of war with them.

Jenn:

And there's 147 African Americans in the Normandy American Cemetery.

Jenn:

There's 20 Native Americans there.

Jenn:

So it is, again, I like the representation it has of World War II.

Jenn:

It is a World War II cemetery, but the representation of America

Jenn:

and the people who were serving the country at the time is there.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

So it was, The video is great.

Scott:

I was so glad you got to get out there and see the people that you did.

Scott:

You really, you made the most of it because there's a lot of people

Scott:

there and you were a little bit beholden to your tour group sometimes.

Scott:

So you did, I think you did a great job.

Scott:

And for folks who are curious when this, by the time this airs, that

Scott:

video will have already posted.

Scott:

So I encourage you guys to go check it out.

Jenn:

I will say it is an honor to go there.

Jenn:

If you're an American, And you want to be in a place where America is so

Jenn:

honored and so respected by a country.

Jenn:

The people of Normandy respect and love Americans and the way

Jenn:

that cemetery is cared for and the way I felt in that cemetery being

Jenn:

able to honor my fellow Americans.

Jenn:

It was just a feeling that I am, I was proud to do.

Jenn:

It can't be replicated.

Jenn:

It's there waiting for you if you'd like to go visit.

Jenn:

But it is only Americans in that grave, in that cemetery, and it is an honor

Jenn:

to, as an American, to visit them there in their final resting place.

Scott:

As a general's aide, I had seen many officers come and go, but

Scott:

Major Charity Adams was different.

Scott:

Not only was she the first Black woman to become an officer in the Women's Army

Scott:

Auxiliary Corps, but she also commanded the 6888th Central Postal Directory

Scott:

Battalion, an all Black, all female unit tasked with the monumental job of sorting

Scott:

through a massive backlog of mail for U.

Scott:

S.

Scott:

troops in Europe during World War II.

Scott:

The job was crucial for morale, and the General was keen to see

Scott:

how this unique battalion was faring with such a monumental task.

Scott:

We arrived at the Postal Facility in France.

Scott:

The General's expression was stern, his eyes scanning the

Scott:

rows of women working diligently.

Scott:

Major Adams was at the forefront, her presence commanding yet approachable.

Scott:

She greeted us with a salute and a confident smile.

Scott:

Welcome, General, she said.

Scott:

We are honored to have you here today.

Scott:

The General nodded curtly, clearly reserving judgment.

Scott:

Show me what you've accomplished, he said.

Scott:

As we walked through the facility, I couldn't help but notice the efficiency

Scott:

and precision with which the women worked.

Scott:

The rows of mailbags had, had Once overwhelmed, the space

Scott:

were now neatly organized.

Scott:

The women moved with purpose, their faces focused and determined.

Scott:

Major Adams explained their process, detailing how they had streamlined

Scott:

the sorting and delivery operations working in phases 24 hours a day.

Scott:

We started with nearly 4 million pieces of undelivered mail, she said.

Scott:

Now we're down to just a fraction of that, with new mail going out

Scott:

almost as soon as it comes in.

Scott:

The general listened intently, his expression softening as

Scott:

he observed the progress.

Scott:

It was clear that Major Adams and her battalion were far exceedingly busy.

Scott:

After the tour, the General pulled me aside.

Scott:

This is impressive work, he admitted.

Scott:

I had my doubts about an all black, all female unit handling

Scott:

such a task, but they've proven themselves more than capable.

Scott:

Later that day, as we prepared to leave, the General approached

Scott:

Major Adams once more.

Scott:

Major Adams, he said.

Scott:

His tone now warm and respectful, I want to commend you and your battalion for

Scott:

the outstanding job you've done here.

Scott:

You've not only met but surpassed my expectations.

Scott:

The work you've done is critical to the morale of our troops, and you should

Scott:

be proud of what you've accomplished.

Scott:

Major Adams stood a little bit taller, her eyes shining with pride.

Scott:

Thank you, General, she replied.

Scott:

As we departed, I couldn't help but feel a deep sense of admiration

Scott:

for Major Adams and the women of the 6888, as it became known.

Scott:

They had faced immense challenges and skepticism, but had risen above it all

Scott:

to perform their duty with excellence.

Scott:

And who knows, maybe they'll inspire future soldiers to join and serve

Scott:

when they hear of the amazing work.

Scott:

They did in these dungy warehouses of World War II France.

Scott:

Thank you for listening to talk with issue podcasts.

Scott:

And please reach out to us.

Scott:

And if you want to chat with us, you can go to the history road trip.

Scott:

com.

Scott:

That's the history road trip.

Scott:

com.

Scott:

And, and that will be a place that we can actually converse a little

Scott:

bit about particular episodes.

Scott:

So I'm going to, and not just with us, you can chat with other people who

Scott:

are listening to the podcast as well.

Scott:

So go to the history road trip.

Scott:

com.

Scott:

Now, if you know someone else that might enjoy this podcast,

Scott:

please share it with them.

Scott:

them, especially if you think today's topic would interest them, shoot them

Scott:

a text and tell them to look us up.

Scott:

We rely on you, our community to grow, and we appreciate you all every day.

Scott:

We'll talk to you next time.

Jenn:

Thank you.

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About the Podcast

Show artwork for Talk With History: Discover Your History Road Trip
Talk With History: Discover Your History Road Trip
A Historian and Navy Veteran talk about traveling to historic locations

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About your hosts

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Scott B

Host of the Talk With History podcast, Producer over at Walk with History on YouTube, and Editor of TheHistoryRoadTrip.com
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Jennifer B

Former Naval Aviator turned Historian and a loyal Penn Stater. (WE ARE!) I earned my Masters in American History and graduate certificate in Museum Studies, from the University of Memphis.

The Talk with History podcast gives Scott and me a chance to go deeper into the details of our Walk with History YouTube videos and gives you a behind-the-scenes look at our history-inspired adventures.

Join us as we talk about these real-world historic locations and learn about the events that continue to impact you today!

Supporters of the show!

Thank you to everyone who supports the show and keeps us up and running. Doing this with your support means that we can continue to share history and historic locations for years to come!
Support Talk with History now
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Larry Z $25
Caught with every podcast. Discovered after learning about them through Pin-Ups For Vets when Jenn became an ambassador. WW II content my favorite.
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Jack B $5
Thank you for the great podcasts and for sharing your passion! Love hearing about the locations you visit.