Episode 124
Exploring the B-25 Mitchell's Legacy and Innovation
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On a crisp April morning in 1942, the USS Hornet set the stage for a historic and audacious military operation—the Doolittle Raid. This daring mission involved launching B-25 Mitchell bombers from an aircraft carrier, a feat never before accomplished. Scott and Jen delve into the intricacies of this operation and its strategic significance during World War II. The episode highlights the leadership of Lieutenant Colonel James Doolittle, who orchestrated the raid to boost American morale following the devastating attack on Pearl Harbor. The psychological impact on the Japanese was profound, as it shattered their illusion of invulnerability and forced them to reconsider their military strategies. As the bombers struck Tokyo and other cities, the crew faced precarious circumstances, with many aircraft forced to land in China after completing their mission. Despite the challenges, 69 of the 80 airmen returned home, marking the Doolittle Raid as a pivotal moment in the war, demonstrating American ingenuity and resolve.
Jen shares her personal experience flying in a B-25 during a recent airshow, illustrating the aircraft's legacy and versatility. The conversation unveils fascinating details about the B-25's design, its extensive use across various theaters of war, and its celebrated role in the Doolittle Raid. Jen recounts the thrill of sitting in the nose of the aircraft, surrounded by the iconic plexiglass, feeling connected to history as she took to the skies. The episode weaves together historical insights with personal stories, creating a vivid tapestry that celebrates the B-25's enduring significance in aviation and military history, while also emphasizing the importance of preserving such legacies for future generations.
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Transcript
B 25 Mitchell medium bombers stood ready, their crews tense with anticipation.
Scott:This was the beginning of the Doolittle raid, a daring mission that would change the course of World War two.
Scott:Lieutenant Colonel James H.
Scott:Doolittle, the mastermind behind the operation, paced the deck.
Scott:The plan was audacious.
Scott:To launch bombers from a carrier to strike the japanese homeland, a feat never before attempted.
Scott:As dawn broke, the signal came, army pilots, man your planes.
Scott:With a roar of engines, the first bomber lurched down the short Runway, and against all odds, it lifted off, followed by 15 more.
Scott:As they disappeared on into the horizon, the crew of the hornet held their breath, knowing the raiders faced a perilous journey with little chance of return.
Scott:Hours later, the bombers reached Japan.
Scott:They struck military and industrial targets in Tokyo and other cities, catching the enemy completely by surprise.
Scott:The physical damage was minimal, but the psychological impact was immense.
Scott:For the first time, the japanese people realized they were not invulnerable.
Scott:As fuel ran low for the bombers, the crews aimed their aircraft towards China.
Scott:Some crash landed.
Scott:Others bailed out.
Scott:Many were aided by chinese civilians and soldiers, while some were captured by the Japanese.
Scott:Despite the risks, 69 of the 80 airmen survived the mission.
Scott:The Doolittle raid, while tactically limited, proved to be a strategic and morale boosting triumph for the United States.
Scott:It forced Japan to recall forces for home defense and precipitated the fateful decision to attack Midway, a battle that would turn the tide of war in the Pacific.
Scott:As news of the raid spread, a wave of jubilation swept across America.
Scott:Daring aviators had delivered a powerful message.
Scott:Even in the darkest hours, hope and courage could light the way to victory, and the B 25 led the way.
Scott:Welcome to talk with history.
Scott:I'm your host, Scott, here with my wife and historian, Jen.
Jen:Hello.
Scott:On this podcast, we give you insights to our history inspired world travels YouTube channel journey, and examine history through deeper conversation with the curious, the explorers, and the history lovers out there.
Scott:Now, Jim, before we start talking about the b 25 and your experience with the b 25, living history, as we'll say, I do want to say thank you to those who have been leaving us more five star ratings over on Apple Podcasts.
Scott:And we've had quite a big jump of Spotify.
Scott:Three star reviews.
Scott:I think that's the max over there.
Jen:Oh, good.
Scott:So, yes, thank you to our Spotify listeners who are catching up to our Apple podcast listeners as far as number of top ratings.
Scott:If you're listening on Spotify.
Scott:Be sure to go in there, drop us three stars.
Scott:And from my apple crew out there listening, make sure you guys are dropping us five stars, even if you aren't writing an actual review, although we do love those, and we will read them on the podcast if we get them.
Scott:Let's talk about the b 25 and tell me why that is our topic today.
Jen:Like you said, living history.
Jen:I felt like this was the epitome of walk with history.
Jen:I felt like I was flying with history.
Jen:I got to actually fly in a b 25.
Scott:In a b 25, Mitchell.
Scott:Like an actual world war two bomber.
Scott:This was nothing.
Scott:Done.
Scott:Internal tours of b 29.
Scott:This one you actually, and the video is actually going to come out a couple days after this podcast.
Scott:You actually got to fly in the b 25 sitting in the nose with the plexiglass right there in all its world war two glory.
Jen:Yeah, I got to sit in the nose in the turret, and they had a mock gun up there, and they had the mock sight, the world War two bomber site.
Jen:That was the advantage for the Americans during that time.
Jen:And I got to take off in the nose.
Jen:And so you have a great vantage point on the video what that would have felt like.
Jen:This aircraft is near and dear to my aviator heart.
Jen:Like, it's named Mitchell, which was my maiden name.
Jen:I came into the US Navy as Ensign Mitchell.
Jen:I got winged as Ensign Mitchell.
Jen:I got out of the navy as Lieutenant Mitchell.
Jen:That last name is my Navy legacy, and it's named after Billy Mitchell, a brigadier general William Mitchell, who was air force or army?
Jen:Army Air before Air Force was even thing.
Scott:Army Air force.
Jen:Army Air force.
Jen:But he is the pioneer of us military aviation in the regard that an aircraft can shoot and sink a ship, and that's what he proved that aircraft could do.
Jen:So basically changed the whole idea of military aviation at the time.
Jen:And really, the navy has a lot to thank for that because that's what we do.
Jen:That's why we fly off of carriers, because we are there not only to shoot other aircraft, but really to sink ships.
Scott:And if you think about it, before that, it was really kind of aerial combat.
Scott:I think World War one, early, it was bombing, but over land.
Jen:Over land.
Scott:Right.
Scott:So they're striving the ground troops, logistic lines and stuff like that.
Scott:There wasn't really, like you said, you weren't really thinking of aviation as a threat against a ship on the sea.
Jen:On the sea.
Jen:So that's what Billy Mitchell pioneered, and so the B 25 was named for him.
Jen:So when you talk about the B 25.
Jen:Usually it's followed by Mitchell.
Jen:B 25, Mitchell.
Jen:Now, this is a PBJ, the aircraft that I got to fly in.
Jen:So patrol bomber.
Jen:And it was a marine aircraft.
Jen:So it's painted a silver color instead of the army green because the Marines used it in the Pacific.
Jen:Now, not this particular one, but ones like it.
Jen:And this one is named Semperfi.
Jen:And against the backdrop of the ocean, you want a gray aircraft.
Jen:Same thing with the navy aircraft.
Jen:You ever noticed that f.
Jen:They keep that gray, that haze gray.
Jen:And same thing with the aircraft I flew, the helicopter, the 60 Bravo.
Jen:We painted the gray because, again, against water, your camouflage.
Scott:Yeah.
Scott:And the B 25 was used extensively all throughout world War two, and not just by us troops, but other allied troops.
Scott:It was semi synonymous with world War two aviation throughout the entire war.
Jen:Yeah.
Jen:It's the most produced medium bomber of all time, and it served in every theater across world War two.
Jen:And it's the first and only time bombers are launched from an aircraft carrier for the Doolittle raid.
Jen:So again, another name that's synonymous with aviation history, when Doolittle took his 16 B, launched him off of the aircraft carrier Hornet in response to Pearl harbor.
Jen:And so every aviator knows what Doolittle was doing to push the envelope.
Jen:They had to take these b, they really reworked them, the configuration of them for the weight to get them off the aircraft carrier, so much so that they removed some guns and put painted broomsticks in to look like guns, because they really didn't think they were going to have much in the regards of defense, this was very much an offensive mission.
Jen:And so even more so, like, the crews that signed up for it, it was kind of like, well, what do we do after?
Jen:And it's.
Jen:It was like, well, you can go to China, you can go to Russia.
Scott:Yeah.
Scott:You're not going to have enough fuel to come back.
Jen:You're not going to land back on the carrier.
Scott:And that's so, as we kind of said in the intro, right, one, it was more of a mental victory for the US.
Scott:Right.
Scott:And it kind of woke Japan up.
Scott:Hey, we can strike you at home just like you hit Hawaii.
Scott:Also, there was numerous variations of the B 25.
Scott:It was reworked multiple times.
Scott:That was kind of the other kind of part of legendary part of this aircraft.
Scott:And for this, for even for the non aviation fan types, the non aviation kind of history nerds, they'll be semi familiar with the Doolittle raid.
Scott:And if you tell them, yeah, this is the mission where they flew the bombers off the carrier, and they didn't return.
Scott:A lot of people will know it specifically for that.
Scott:And that was, like you said, they couldn't carry all that fuel.
Scott:And that was, I was commenting before we started the podcast.
Scott: This is April of: Scott:This is barely four months after Pearl harbor.
Scott:Think about the quick turn on.
Scott:Okay, this just happened four months later.
Scott:They're trying to figure this out.
Scott:They're like, okay, this is what we're gonna do.
Scott:We're gonna strip these planes and make them as light as humanly possible so they can carry these bombs.
Scott:And, oh, by the way, you're not gonna have enough fuel to return home.
Jen:Yeah, like I said, they are gonna remove the lower gun turret.
Jen:They're gonna instillate, they're gonna put on mock gun barrels and the tail cone to look like guns.
Jen:They're going to get these collapsible fuel tanks that they're going to be able to fill them up, but they're going to basically be able to deflate and save the space.
Jen:So they're doing all of these things to respond to Pearl harbor.
Jen:Now, the doolittle raid is not known for mass casualty.
Jen:It's not known for mass destruction.
Jen:What it's known for is a scare tactic against the Japanese and a morale boost for America.
Jen:So the Japanese were so surprised that Americans were so innovative to do this and to figure this out so quickly, so quickly.
Jen:And they really were all in on figuring this out and doing this to the detriment.
Jen:Like, they didn't even care if the crew made it back.
Jen:I mean, granted, they wanted to make sure the crew survived, but their basic idea was land in China, Russia, and good luck.
Jen:Hopefully, those neutral countries can get you home.
Jen:And actually, it's going to be more detrimental for China than anything.
Jen:So many people are going to pay the price for that when the Japanese will invade China because of it.
Jen:But it makes the japanese kind of stop their forward offensive and pull back to Japan.
Jen:So much so that when the Midway islands are attacked, America's so ready that it becomes a turn of events for America.
Jen:America will win midway.
Jen:And this is all because Japan has kind of seen that America doesn't back down.
Scott:Japan didn't realize they were poking a bear as big as, or as big a bear as they thought, right?
Scott:They thought they were poking a bear cub, and they got mama bear.
Scott:And so we hit him right back, which made him kind of recoil, pull back a little bit.
Scott:And so we got that kind of short term response that we wanted so that we could fight them on the front that we were good at.
Scott:And then all the meantime, in the background, while we're doing this stuff in the Pacific, they're building the bomb, they're building the b 29 and doing all this stuff for long range.
Scott:And so this is kind of the pointy end, demonstrating, like you said, that innovative american kind of just drive during World War two, there was so much progress.
Scott:And we talked about this before.
Scott:That's made during times of war like this, when you're just dumping money into wartime innovation.
Scott:And that's what they did.
Jen:So the Japanese were concerned.
Jen:When you think about the japanese islands and how there's not a lot of them, when America was able to attack them and do it as a surprise, they got scared and they really recoiled back because they don't have a huge area like we do in America.
Jen:So it brought a lot of the fight to the Pacific and to the islands of the Pacific and kept the Japanese away from the mainland, which was the objective.
Jen:I think Doolittle was just so innovative, and I think the Mitchell aircraft was so perfect for this.
Jen: ting about the Mitchell, over: Jen:And like you said, there's many different characteristics of them and what they can do.
Jen:And because the aircraft is so versatile like that, they survived.
Jen:Like their durability was exceptionally sturdy, and even they could withstand tremendous punishment.
Jen:They could take on a lot of flak, and you could even fly without one engine.
Jen:And you just had to be careful of your angle of bank, but you could fly with one engine and save the aircraft.
Jen:So the durability of the Mitchell really allowed for aircraft mission completion, crew survival.
Jen:And another thing I really liked about it as well, there was one aircraft that flew over 300 missions, and it was called patches because its crew painted all the aircraft black holes with bright yellow paint.
Jen:And it did 300 missions, barely landed six times, had over 400 patch holes, and was still able to fly and still able to complete its missions.
Jen:What a versatile aircraft.
Jen:It really makes you believe in your aircraft as a pilot.
Scott:Yeah.
Jen:The only thing that Mitchell has working against it, and you'll see in the video is it's extremely loud.
Scott:Yeah.
Scott:If you're listening to this on the day of release, there's a video that we show where Jen got to go out to California, and she was representing a charity that she's working for called pinups for vets at this Camarillo air show.
Scott:This is in southern California area, just north of Los Angeles.
Scott:Jen was out there, and she had connected with some of the crew from the B 25, from the semper Phi.
Scott:That's the name of this aircraft.
Jen:Yes.
Jen:So I was at the Wingsboro Camarillo air show, which is in August every year, they have all these aircraft that come in.
Jen:Very fun air show.
Jen:And part of what the commemorative air force, this, the Southern California unit does is offer warbird rides.
Jen:These warbird rides program is to build, you know, just camaraderie among the people, teach them about these aircraft.
Jen:It also funds their projects, funds the restoration of the aircraft.
Jen:This is the world's only remaining US Navy marine B 25 PBJ Wow.
Jen:Bomber.
Jen:The only one to maintain this aircraft is not cheap.
Jen:And so they offer rides in the aircraft to help fund these missions.
Jen:And I got to have a flight in one.
Jen:Now, if you're interested in having a ride, we'll have the information in the show notes.
Jen:They're always offering rides in different types of aircraft as well.
Jen:You don't have to just do the b 25.
Scott:And they're going to different air shows around the country.
Scott:So then it's not just, this particular aircraft is not just in southern California now, I think it's based out of there, but it'll, I think they were talking about, like, they flew out of Texas one time.
Scott:So they go to different, different air shows.
Scott:Look at our show notes.
Scott:There's air to the commemorative Air Force, and there's other, you know, kinds of old warbirds that are also part of this organization.
Scott:If you're in the Southern California area, you can go check this out up in Camarillo.
Scott:Now, tell me a little bit about what you got to do while you're at Camarillo in the aircraft.
Scott:Some of the things that you learned give some of our listeners the specifics of what you got to do.
Jen:Of course, I got to climb around the aircraft.
Jen:And if you've ever been in a world war two type aircraft, it's very tight.
Jen:And even to get into the nose turret, I had to crawl through a little tunnel.
Jen:So if you're going to ride in one of these aircraft, you got to be pretty agile.
Jen:You have to climb up old school ladders that are made of metal.
Jen:And even when I sat beside the co pilot, who gives us a great interview, if you watch the video, it's tight.
Jen:Now, I always say I have the perfect frame as a woman.
Jen:I'm about five'six.
Jen:I have the perfect frame to fit into the cockpits of World War Two.
Jen:But the men were smaller then.
Jen:And you're sitting right beside your copilot.
Jen:It's a yoke aircraft.
Jen:So that's where you have your two hands on the control, and it's static instruments.
Scott:Yeah.
Jen:And it's dual pilot, it's dual piloted.
Jen:And so we were very tight up in there.
Jen:But then you get to see where the gunners stand, the top turret, the nose turret, the tail turret, and where the passengers sit.
Jen:And I got a great interview with the maintenance chief, the crew chief as well, teach me about the aircraft.
Jen:But one of the things I learned that was so interesting, especially these ones that were used in the Pacific, mostly by navy, marines, mostly with skip bombing.
Scott:Yeah, you talked about that.
Jen:So that's where you get close enough to the water and you drop the bomb, and you can skip it across the surface of the water, much like skipping a rock.
Jen:And it's much better for destruction of ships to get hit on the hull.
Scott:On the side.
Jen:On the side than to be dropped down on.
Jen:Because bomb drops straight down onto a ship, they might be able to contain the damage.
Jen:It might not go through the ship.
Jen:More than likely, it will not.
Jen:And then they can contain that damage.
Jen:But if you hit the hull of a ship, the side of the ship, you're going to cause a big opening that's going to take on water, and that is the most effective way to sink a ship.
Jen:So skip bombing was the most effective way to take down the enemy's vessel.
Scott:That.
Scott:That's so interesting.
Scott:And it always makes me think about, what's the first time they ever realized they could do that?
Scott:And someone probably did it by accident.
Jen:Yeah.
Jen:Submarine.
Scott:Yeah.
Jen:Who was like, oh, my gosh, I'm too.
Jen:I'm too close to the water, or I missed.
Jen:Yeah, but I did miss.
Jen:It hit how that hit.
Jen:I dropped it way away.
Jen:Did it bounce off the water and go into.
Jen:Oh, my gosh, it's skipping like a rock.
Jen:You can skip a bomb just like you skip a rock.
Scott:So that means they were probably flying pretty low in order to do that.
Jen:They did, and that became their official tactic.
Scott:Wow.
Jen:Because it was so effective to sink ships, that became the tactic for how these B 25s would bomb in the water.
Scott:Yeah.
Scott:That's so neat to hear things like that.
Scott:You'll only ever figure that out, really, in wartime.
Scott:Right.
Scott:They would never try that during regular training.
Scott:Cause if you don't know that it's even a thing, you're never gonna train until you're forced into some weird scenario and you gotta drop the bomb anyway.
Scott:So you do it, and you're like, oh, my gosh.
Scott:But it was probably the tail gunner that actually saw it skip.
Jen:Yeah.
Scott:Probably wasn't the pilot.
Scott:It was probably the tail gunner sitting in the back.
Scott:Be like, hey, you wouldn't believe what I saw actually happened with that bomb.
Scott:It skipped across the water, hit it on the side, and that's why it's keeling over now, because it actually worked more like a torpedo.
Scott:So I thought that was really fascinating.
Scott:And then you got to sit, like, right in the cockpit.
Scott:You were sitting right up front with the copilot, and then for actual takeoff, you actually got to sit in the nose.
Scott:So if you're listening, picture the B 25.
Scott:And if you don't kind of know what a b 25 looks like off the top of your head, it's your kind of classic warbird look.
Scott:It's similar to the b 17, but it really has kind of like the dual tails in the back, but it has that plexiglass kind of skeleton esque front end nose, typically with a machine gun pointing out the front of it.
Scott:And so you got to sit right there during taxi and all the way through takeoff.
Jen:It was amazing.
Jen:So only one person sits in the front, and they asked, who wants to sit in front?
Jen:And nobody answered right away.
Jen:And I was like, I will.
Jen:And I can't believe nobody was there, because I rode with other civilians who were doing a ride.
Jen:They're paying for their warboard ride.
Jen:And so I got to crawl through that tunnel, get up front, buckle in, and like you said, this plexiglass all around you, it's very reminiscent of maybe the millennium falcon.
Jen:When you think of all the glass around your feet, around your sides, around your head, so you can see in every direction below you and on the sides of you and above you.
Jen:And that was for a nose gunner to be able to see the enemy coming in at all different directions.
Jen:And so I got to take off from there, which means I'm right aligned to the middle of the Runway.
Jen:So you can see as I take off, we're going right?
Jen:And then as we lift off and we fly over Camarillo, we actually head out to the Ronald Reagan library, presidential Library.
Jen:That's in Simi Valley, and then we turn around and come back.
Jen:So it was a perfect flight, probably about 20 minutes.
Jen:Beautiful day.
Jen:And it was just one of those moments in aviation where I just felt so in love with being in the air and flying.
Jen:It really was a gift.
Jen:And I.
Jen:Of all these years of being a pilot and having the last name Mitchell, I took my oath of office on the day that the Wright brothers flew their aircraft for the first time.
Jen:And then to actually get to fly in a b 25 from the nose, it was one of those moments as a pilot that it just.
Jen:It can't be topped.
Jen:I was very thankful.
Jen:I was very grateful.
Jen:And as a historian, to know this is the only bomber that ever flew off an aircraft carrier.
Jen:I just felt so lucky, and I was very thankful that the museum allowed me to do that.
Scott:Yeah, it was a fun video to make.
Scott:We've been waiting for a while to make this one.
Scott:In fact, we've been trying to make this video for well over a year.
Scott:We had actually had plans when we were still living in Virginia over a year ago to go to the Camarillo area show last year.
Scott:Just didn't end up working out for a multitude of different reasons.
Scott:And this time, I think we just basically kind of made it happen.
Scott:I was ecstatic that you got to do that ride in the nose in the b 25 because you would come kind of volunteering at the air show.
Scott:They gave you this ride, and this is kind of our gift back to them is making this video, as well as featuring you.
Scott:And one of the things that I put in the video that I really love that encompassed you and your love for aviation was a quote often attributed to Leonardo da Vinci.
Scott:There's no proof that he ever actually said it, but the quote goes, once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes to turn skyward, for there you have been and there you will always long to return.
Scott:This has been a walk with history production.
Scott:Talk with history is created and hosted by me, Scott Benny.
Scott:Episode researched by Jennifer Benny.
Scott:Check out the show notes for links and references mentioned in this episode.
Scott:Talk with history is supported by our fans@thehistoryroadtrip.com.
Scott:our eternal thanks to those providing funding to help keep us going.
Scott:Thank you to Doug mcLivrity, Larry Myers, and Patrick Benny.
Scott:Make sure you hit that follow button in your podcast player and we'll talk to you next time.
