Stonewall Jackson: The facts you didn't know

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The air hung heavy with the acrid scent of gunpowder

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and the screams of the wounded.

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Private John Blake gripped his musket tighter, his knuckles white.

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The Confederate line was faltering and the Union troops were pressing forward.

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Panic bubbled in his chest, but then he saw him, General Thomas J.

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Jackson, standing firm as a rock amidst the chaos.

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Jackson.

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Clyde in his usual faded frock coat and slouch hat surveyed the

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battlefield with a calm determination.

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Bullets whizzed around him, but he seemed impervious.

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His unwavering resolve inspired the wavering Confederate soldiers

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and they rallied behind him.

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Suddenly, General Bernard B., another Confederate leader, cried

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out, pointing towards Jackson.

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Look, men, there is Jackson standing like a stone wall.

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His voice boomed over the din of the battle, echoing through the ranks.

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Rally around him!

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Found the Virginians.

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The quote there is Jackson standing like a stone wall had an electric effect.

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It perfectly captured Jackson's unwavering presence and served as a

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rallying cry for the Confederates.

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John emboldened by Jackson's leadership and Bee's words poured

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another shot down the barrel of his musket and let loose another volley.

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As the smoke cleared.

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John saw B fall mortally wounded, but Jackson Unfazed stepped forward.

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His roar echoed bees call Rally around the Virginians.

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John and his fellow soldiers surge forward, a renewed sense

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of purpose coursing through them.

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They push back the Union forces in securing a vital

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victory for the Confederacy.

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News of Jackson's heroism spread like wildfire throughout the South.

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Newspapers hailed him as a Stonewall, a steadfast and

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immovable force on the battlefield.

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The nickname stuck, and Thomas J.

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Jackson became forever known as Stonewall Jackson.

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Track 4 effects Stonewall jackson gravesite: Mhm.

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Welcome to Talk With History.

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I am your host, Scott, here with my wife and historian, Jen.

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Hello!

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On this podcast, we give you insights to our history inspired world travels,

Scott: 00:02:18

YouTube channel journey, and examine history through deeper conversations

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with the curious, the explorers, and the history lovers out there.

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Now, Jen, we are back.

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back from a little bit of a break.

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At least this is the first podcast that I will publish after,

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after a little bit of a break.

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And one of the things that I asked in the teaser to this episode was for folks

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to kind of write in about and tell us what their favorite podcast episode was.

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And so we had a new patron, new patron member, Larry Myers.

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He wrote in I'll kind of summarize his email.

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He said, you asked for a question about our favorite episode of Talk with History.

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That's a very hard question.

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Thank you, Larry.

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Being from the Cleveland area, I loved the Lakeview one, but

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also loved the Arlington ones.

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The Arlington ones I think are some of our favorites, but my pick

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is the Strong Vincent podcast.

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I am in the middle of reading a book about him and he's becoming one of my

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favorite leaders from from the Civil War.

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So I thought that was really cool because you are such a strong Vincent advocate.

Jenn: 00:03:16

Yes.

Jenn: 00:03:17

So much so, I think we've talked about this before, when you, if you go into

Jenn: 00:03:20

stores in Gettysburg, and you ask for like a shirt with Strunk Benson on it,

Jenn: 00:03:26

if they're a true Civil War buff, they'll know exactly who and why I'm asking for

Jenn: 00:03:31

that, but they don't really carry it.

Jenn: 00:03:33

But you'll find Chamberlain on almost everything.

Jenn: 00:03:36

And, uh, I'll say it before I say it again, Chamberlain wouldn't be who he

Jenn: 00:03:40

was, wouldn't have stood that position without strong Vincent putting him there

Jenn: 00:03:44

and telling him to stand, hold the line.

Jenn: 00:03:47

So I find it great to remember him.

Jenn: 00:03:51

He lost his life at Gettysburg.

Jenn: 00:03:53

Doesn't get to tell his story and has no descendants because

Jenn: 00:03:58

his daughter also died young.

Jenn: 00:04:00

So, I feel like it's our job as historians to kind of tell their

Jenn: 00:04:04

stories and he's one of them.

Jenn: 00:04:06

And yeah, I just, I will, I'm proud to talk about Strong Vincent and I'm

Jenn: 00:04:10

glad that people are, it's resonating with people and that means a lot.

Jenn: 00:04:15

So thank you,

Scott: 00:04:16

Yeah, yeah.

Scott: 00:04:16

So thanks for writing in.

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And again, if anybody else is listening you can either write into us, there's

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always a link in the show notes, or really if you're listening, one of the things

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that we're hoping to that our audience can help us out with his followers.

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So if you know someone that enjoys, or if you enjoy these podcasts, and you know

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someone else that might enjoy some kind of history and travel oriented podcasts

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like ours, please share it with them.

Scott: 00:04:42

So, Jen, we are upgrading the format.

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I'll say upgrading the format of this podcast episode.

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In the beginning, as the podcast, The listener will have just heard we're kind

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of doing, I'm starting to put in some kind of story vignettes to kind of really

Scott: 00:04:56

give a feel for the person, place or thing that we're, we're talking about.

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And so we're talking about Stonewall Jackson and he kind of

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got his initial fame at Manassas, but before we start getting into

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that part of his life, once you.

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us a little bit about who stonewall jackson was before

Scott: 00:05:16

he was stonewall jackson.

Jenn: 00:05:18

Sure.

Jenn: 00:05:19

I mean, before he was Stonewall Jackson, he was just a Virginia boy.

Jenn: 00:05:24

He's born in what is now West Virginia at the time, Virginia,

Jenn: 00:05:29

and his parents die young.

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He's poor.

Jenn: 00:05:32

He wants to go to a military academy.

Jenn: 00:05:34

He gets into West Point because it's, you know, as it is still today,

Jenn: 00:05:38

it's paid for by the government.

Jenn: 00:05:40

If you go to a service academy, he's class of 1846.

Jenn: 00:05:44

So he's born in January of 1824.

Jenn: 00:05:47

four.

Jenn: 00:05:47

So he's graduating at 22 years old.

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So so he's And and I don't think I to be honest

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never really thought about it.

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So he's basically career military his whole life So he never really

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he wasn't like one of those who?

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Was a farmer or this that and the other he as a young kid wanted to be A soldier and

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went to west point and that's what he did.

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He did his entire

Jenn: 00:06:11

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:06:12

And he's teaching at VMI for 10 years.

Jenn: 00:06:13

It's from 1851 to 1861.

Jenn: 00:06:16

We just called up to for the civil war,

Scott: 00:06:18

Wow So he that's right because he did some time You served, got out.

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That's when he went to go teach at VMI.

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That's right.

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And then at VMI, then the Civil War kicks off and like, Hey, Thomas J.

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Jackson, because he didn't have the moniker

Jenn: 00:06:33

you know?

Scott: 00:06:34

Right now, was he, didn't he kind of have a reputation at VMI?

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I thought like he had his reputation being very strict.

Jenn: 00:06:42

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:06:42

It says he served in the United States army during the Mexican American war.

Jenn: 00:06:46

So he did, he was in one conflict and it's in Mexico that Jackson

Jenn: 00:06:50

will first meet Robert E.

Jenn: 00:06:51

Lee.

Scott: 00:06:52

Okay.

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So he actually met him, While he was during basically his initial

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term of, of, commissioning before he, before he got off of, you know,

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what we would call active duty.

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So that's what he was fighting in the Mexican American war.

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And that's when he met

Jenn: 00:07:06

It's when he met Lee and he has an interesting event that

Jenn: 00:07:11

happens in the Mexican American War.

Jenn: 00:07:13

He got what he felt was a bad order to retreat and he felt that if he

Jenn: 00:07:19

would have retreated his troops, it would have been more hazardous and

Jenn: 00:07:22

it would have claimed more lives.

Jenn: 00:07:24

So instead he stands his ground and he doesn't retreat and he confronts

Jenn: 00:07:29

his superiors later with his choice to stay and that judgment proves correct.

Jenn: 00:07:34

And he was able to And, and holding that ground, they were

Jenn: 00:07:38

able to fight off the enemy.

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so it was a little bit of a preview of what he did during

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the Civil War consistently.

Jenn: 00:07:44

So.

Jenn: 00:07:45

It just showed his strength of character.

Jenn: 00:07:48

He just shows that he was able to like go up against what he thought was a, you

Jenn: 00:07:52

know, a superior officer in rank and, and, and prove his rationale for staying.

Jenn: 00:07:58

So again, it's just a, it's a taste of.

Jenn: 00:08:02

Jackson.

Jenn: 00:08:03

Then he goes to VMI.

Jenn: 00:08:05

He's accepted there as a teaching position.

Jenn: 00:08:07

He becomes professor of natural and experimental philosophy or

Jenn: 00:08:10

physics and instructor of artillery.

Jenn: 00:08:13

Jackson was disliked as a teacher.

Jenn: 00:08:16

They nicknamed him Tom fool,

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That's what I was thinking

Jenn: 00:08:19

believing Jackson could never be anything more than a,

Jenn: 00:08:22

a half soldier, half preacher.

Jenn: 00:08:24

Like he wasn't really tested.

Jenn: 00:08:26

It was like somebody who, uh, do as I say, not as I do, what

Jenn: 00:08:30

those who can't do, teach.

Jenn: 00:08:32

Right?

Jenn: 00:08:32

That kind of that

Scott: 00:08:33

interesting that, that he, that he had that reputation of VMI

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and then became this shining icon.

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later on, uh, during the Civil

Jenn: 00:08:43

And they say when students would ask for explanation about

Jenn: 00:08:47

something, he wouldn't explain it.

Jenn: 00:08:49

He would just repeat what he said slower.

Scott: 00:08:51

Really?

Scott: 00:08:52

How interesting.

Jenn: 00:08:54

So that was the other thing that bothered students, which I

Jenn: 00:08:56

think gave him that nickname fool.

Jenn: 00:08:58

And things like that.

Jenn: 00:09:00

So, but that's, like I said, at VMI is where he has his home.

Jenn: 00:09:04

If you want to visit the Stonewall Jackson house, that is in Lexington, Virginia,

Jenn: 00:09:09

because VMI is in Lexington, Virginia.

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So you can visit.

Jenn: 00:09:12

And that's the only home he ever owned.

Jenn: 00:09:14

And that is still a museum there.

Jenn: 00:09:16

Yeah.

Scott: 00:09:18

I just thought that was such kind of an interesting chapter of

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his life for someone who's, who's so well known for what he did,

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you know, as a general, right.

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In the Confederate army.

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And kind of everybody sees and thinks of him as this career soldier.

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And he was because he was at VMI, right.

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It is a little bit, but he wasn't continuously serving.

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So it's, it's just interesting.

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It's different for someone like that.

Jenn: 00:09:42

And so, like you said, his reputation is going to precede himself.

Jenn: 00:09:46

What I want people to know about Jackson, though, is the way I

Jenn: 00:09:49

understand Jackson, the way I think of Jackson is it's very difficult when

Jenn: 00:09:56

you think of the Civil War and you think of Lee to not think of Jackson.

Jenn: 00:10:00

His first right hand man general, Stonewall Jackson.

Jenn: 00:10:04

Like even when we think of Grant, you're like, Oh, who's his right hand man?

Jenn: 00:10:07

Could it be McClellan?

Jenn: 00:10:09

Could it be Sherman?

Jenn: 00:10:10

Sherman proves himself in the march to Atlanta,

Scott: 00:10:13

But there's no name that really is, is as

Jenn: 00:10:16

but Jackson proves himself from the very beginning of the civil war.

Jenn: 00:10:20

So much so that he's a threat throughout the civil war and by his

Jenn: 00:10:24

own folly, he's, um, distinguished, but his fire is put out.

Jenn: 00:10:29

But even later in life, General Patton will have two pictures on his desk.

Jenn: 00:10:37

It'll be Jesus and, and Stonewall Jackson, right?

Jenn: 00:10:43

And he would tell Eisenhower, I'm your Jackson, right?

Jenn: 00:10:46

And people would tell MacArthur, I'm your Jackson.

Jenn: 00:10:48

Like people would distinguish themselves to these great generals as

Jenn: 00:10:53

I want to be your Stonewall Jackson.

Jenn: 00:10:55

That's

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I, I'm your go to.

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I, I am your set it and forget it.

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I will, I will get the job done.

Jenn: 00:11:01

And as much as like.

Jenn: 00:11:03

We don't want to give a lot of credit to the confederacy and give them

Jenn: 00:11:07

any accolades for their strategic battle maneuvers or anything

Jenn: 00:11:12

like that Stonewall Jackson was what made Lee so Successful and

Scott: 00:11:19

that, and that kind of started from the beginning.

Scott: 00:11:22

At

Jenn: 00:11:23

Exactly, and that is where you career soldiers, even World War II, who

Jenn: 00:11:28

will refer to Jackson as a right hand man.

Jenn: 00:11:31

Because when we talk about Jackson's demise, Lee will say he lost his right

Jenn: 00:11:36

arm, because he feels like he did.

Jenn: 00:11:39

And that, and honestly, there's a lot of people who believe maybe the Confederacy

Jenn: 00:11:43

wouldn't have fallen if, Jackson.

Jenn: 00:11:45

You can conjure up anything that never happened, of course.

Jenn: 00:11:48

But this is where Jackson gets the myth and this lost cause scenario.

Jenn: 00:11:53

And he kind of lives today in that.

Jenn: 00:11:55

I don't want him to make him bigger than what he really is, but

Jenn: 00:11:59

I want people to understand how he's seen in the military mindset.

Jenn: 00:12:04

And he was that strategic military leader.

Jenn: 00:12:08

Did not have that reputation at VMI.

Jenn: 00:12:11

But what I think happened, and, As a former military soldier and you, former

Jenn: 00:12:17

military soldier, I think what happened with Stonewall Jackson is in his first

Jenn: 00:12:21

test at the Battle of Bull Run, he really put his teaching into action.

Jenn: 00:12:29

I really think he's, he was so well versed in military maneuvers and

Jenn: 00:12:34

teaching it, that now he has a chance to practice it against the North.

Jenn: 00:12:38

That's not really ready.

Jenn: 00:12:40

for a conflict and that they have not been tested and they have not been practicing.

Jenn: 00:12:46

He can put these ideas and maneuvers into action.

Jenn: 00:12:52

If,

Scott: 00:12:53

interesting and I'm glad you brought up kind of what he did in the

Scott: 00:12:56

Mexican American war because Having been through something like that.

Scott: 00:13:02

I know people I've served with people who've had similar experiences not

Scott: 00:13:05

like that in battle, but something where they stood up for what

Scott: 00:13:09

they thought or knew was right.

Scott: 00:13:12

Everybody else disagreed with them.

Scott: 00:13:14

And in the end, it came about that they were actually right.

Scott: 00:13:17

And what that does is that kind of solidifies something in you that

Scott: 00:13:21

says, okay, I've done this before.

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I was right when everybody else thought I was wrong.

Scott: 00:13:28

I'm confident in my decision making and my approach to things

Scott: 00:13:33

because I, I I've done it before.

Scott: 00:13:35

And so that had, And my guess is his experience previously before VMI

Scott: 00:13:43

further, you know, kind of gave him that, that, that boldness that he was known for

Scott: 00:13:48

of holding the line and really being out there when, when it came to the civil war.

Scott: 00:13:54

So it's, it's interesting to kind of see that, see that arc from early in his

Scott: 00:13:58

career to when he really gained his fame.

Jenn: 00:14:02

if you make a choice like that as a military person, right?

Jenn: 00:14:06

And you're proven right.

Jenn: 00:14:08

It's a great thing.

Jenn: 00:14:10

If you're proven wrong, that's it.

Jenn: 00:14:11

Your career is And you're You know, you'll be lucky if you

Jenn: 00:14:15

get an honorable discharge.

Jenn: 00:14:17

So to be proven right, it does solidify something.

Jenn: 00:14:20

I think it makes you braver in testing out those tactics again, because

Jenn: 00:14:27

anytime you're in battle, you're going to be, it's just the fog of battle.

Jenn: 00:14:31

You're going to be scared.

Jenn: 00:14:31

You're going to be nervous.

Jenn: 00:14:32

You're going to be not sure if you're making the right

Jenn: 00:14:33

decisions, especially as a leader.

Jenn: 00:14:35

And so for him to do it again, battle, bull, run, we have

Jenn: 00:14:39

an entire video from there.

Jenn: 00:14:41

This is where he's going to get that name, Snowball

Scott: 00:14:43

Yeah.

Scott: 00:14:43

So he, he gets that name at Bull Run, right.

Scott: 00:14:46

And then kind of really starts gaining some fame, especially through the South.

Scott: 00:14:49

Gets the reputation even, uh, even in the North, right, for kind of

Scott: 00:14:52

the fierceness of his fighting.

Scott: 00:14:54

And then another time, you know, and we'll kind of go quickly through his,

Scott: 00:14:58

his career during the Civil War, but at Antietam, he is really kind of one of the

Scott: 00:15:02

reasons that the Confederacy essentially like doesn't win, but doesn't lose, right.

Scott: 00:15:08

They kind of, they held at Antietam.

Scott: 00:15:19

Two years, two long, bloody years since the chaos of bull run.

Scott: 00:15:25

Private John Blake, his uniform now a faded reflection of its

Scott: 00:15:28

former glory, crouched behind a crumbling stone wall at Antietam.

Scott: 00:15:33

The air vibrated with the relentless roar of musket fire.

Scott: 00:15:36

Unlike Bull Run, here, the fight felt different.

Scott: 00:15:39

No clear lines, just a swirling vortex of death.

Scott: 00:15:45

John's heart hammered a frantic rhythm against his ribs.

Scott: 00:15:48

He missed the sight of Stonewall Jackson.

Scott: 00:15:49

The man who had become a symbol of confederate defiance.

Scott: 00:15:53

Jackson, rumor had it, was delayed, capturing some damned federal outpost.

Scott: 00:15:58

John couldn't help but feel a tremor of fear.

Scott: 00:16:00

Without Jackson's stoic presence, the line felt brittle, easily shattered.

Scott: 00:16:06

Suddenly, a ragged cheer erupted from the confederate right.

Scott: 00:16:09

John craned his neck, squinting through the smoke.

Scott: 00:16:11

There, amidst the carnage, stood Stonewall Jackson, his

Scott: 00:16:14

weathered face etched to black.

Scott: 00:16:16

With a grim determination, a sense of relief washed over John.

Scott: 00:16:20

It was as if a dam had held and a surge of renewed confidence ran

Scott: 00:16:24

through the Confederate ranks.

Scott: 00:16:27

John watched mesmerized as Jackson surveyed the battlefield.

Scott: 00:16:30

He pointed parked orders and within moments, Confederate reinforcements were

Scott: 00:16:34

streaming toward a particularly felt.

Scott: 00:16:36

Fierce union assault.

Scott: 00:16:39

John could almost hear Jackson's voice a steady counterpoint to

Scott: 00:16:42

the symphony of destruction.

Scott: 00:16:44

It was a far cry from the booming rally, cry of bull run.

Scott: 00:16:48

Yet it had the same unwavering resolve, but Antietam was a different beast.

Scott: 00:16:53

The day bled into a horrific stalemate.

Scott: 00:16:56

John, his ears ringing, his body screaming in protest, loaded

Scott: 00:16:59

and fired until his limbs ached.

Scott: 00:17:02

Each time he glimpsed Stonewall Jackson directing troops with the same unwavering

Scott: 00:17:06

determination, a flicker of hope rekindled as the sun dipped down below the

Scott: 00:17:10

horizon, casting long shadows across the battlefield, littered with dead and dying.

Scott: 00:17:15

The Union attack finally faltered.

Scott: 00:17:17

John slumped against the stone wall, his body spent.

Scott: 00:17:21

He saw Stonewall Jackson on a nearby rise, surveying the carnage.

Scott: 00:17:24

The man looked older, wearier, yet his eyes still held that same steely glint.

Scott: 00:17:31

John knew the battle wasn't a decisive victory, but they had held, and that, in

Scott: 00:17:35

this bloody hell, felt like a triumph.

Scott: 00:17:37

As John drifted into an uneasy sleep, he thought of Stonewall Jackson as a symbol

Scott: 00:17:42

not just of defiance, but of resilience.

Scott: 00:17:45

A quality John desperately clung to in the face of an uncertain future.

Jenn: 00:17:52

So, Jackson is the reason for the stalemate, because it was

Jenn: 00:17:57

looking like a Confederacy loss.

Jenn: 00:18:00

And, uh, he comes, he comes in, gets there and holds the line.

Jenn: 00:18:05

And again, so many casualties that they both kind of just,

Scott: 00:18:08

Yeah, I mean the bloodiest, the bloodiest

Jenn: 00:18:10

But he's battle so many casualties that they just kind of haven't

Jenn: 00:18:15

say just they just stop fighting

Scott: 00:18:18

they're just like, we can't do this

Jenn: 00:18:19

Yeah, and they clean up their men right because it's like

Jenn: 00:18:21

piles So and that's that's where Lee really starts to see like this

Jenn: 00:18:27

man can't be It can be replaced.

Jenn: 00:18:32

It's a bull run that he is on his horse and he doesn't move from

Jenn: 00:18:38

the artillery fire and he doesn't move his men and another general

Jenn: 00:18:43

will rally his men around Jackson.

Jenn: 00:18:47

He'll point to him and say, you know, look at Jackson standing like a stone wall,

Scott: 00:18:52

rally, rally around the

Jenn: 00:18:54

rally around the Virginians.

Jenn: 00:18:56

And so that's where he gets his name.

Jenn: 00:18:58

Now, I.

Jenn: 00:18:59

I, again, this is another movement that could have been a folly

Jenn: 00:19:05

because to not move during artillery is also as smart as it dumb.

Jenn: 00:19:08

Like at that time, the aim isn't great.

Jenn: 00:19:12

So you're really calling it 50 50 if they can hit you anyway to move, you

Jenn: 00:19:16

might be moving into fire to stand still.

Jenn: 00:19:19

You might be, so you might be worry free.

Jenn: 00:19:22

He was worry free.

Jenn: 00:19:23

He never got hit.

Jenn: 00:19:25

So it became like almost a legend.

Scott: 00:19:29

and that's what you know that the listeners now as we kind of make our

Scott: 00:19:33

way through the podcast They've they've heard the couple, you know, probably

Scott: 00:19:36

act one and act two by now and they've heard you know in in these vignettes,

Scott: 00:19:41

there's a private John Blake, right that I'm writing in here and In that story

Scott: 00:19:46

that we're telling through this podcast is there is a lot of hope and confidence

Scott: 00:19:53

that is built up from all the soldiers into this one entity, because they're

Scott: 00:19:59

just like he seems to just just just He's blessed in some sort of way, right?

Scott: 00:20:05

And they're not thinking of it in People have to realize that when

Scott: 00:20:09

you're in the thick of battle, you're not thinking about the larger picture

Scott: 00:20:12

You're trying to stay alive and you're trying to you know, get the fight

Scott: 00:20:16

the other side back so that you don't die That's the quick and short of it.

Scott: 00:20:20

They're not thinking about oh Is it overall about the economy

Scott: 00:20:23

or about slavery or anything like or anything else like that?

Scott: 00:20:26

They're thinking I got to kill the other guy So the other guy doesn't

Scott: 00:20:28

kill me and when you have someone like that That's just seems to Not get hit

Scott: 00:20:33

by any sort of bullet anywhere anytime and succeed almost everywhere that

Scott: 00:20:39

inspires a lot of confidence And so that's what's kind of gaining momentum

Scott: 00:20:44

throughout the war all the way up through Antietam Even though it's a stalemate.

Scott: 00:20:48

It still is kind of The confederacy kind of feels like it's still semi a win

Scott: 00:20:53

because they almost should have lost.

Jenn: 00:20:55

Yeah, and he has some big victories, right?

Jenn: 00:20:57

The Battle of Fredericksburg, that's a Confederate victory.

Jenn: 00:21:00

That's because of Jackson.

Jenn: 00:21:01

They held off a strong Union assault against the right flank.

Jenn: 00:21:05

So he's getting a lot of notoriety.

Jenn: 00:21:07

Battle of Chancellorsville.

Scott: 00:21:10

Now, Chancellorsville, that's, that's more towards the end.

Scott: 00:21:13

So he actually won that.

Scott: 00:21:16

But that was, that was kind of when his, his light started to go out.

Scott: 00:21:20

So tell us about that.

Jenn: 00:21:21

Jackson is proving to be effective.

Jenn: 00:21:24

He's, you know, Lee is very satisfied with Jackson's, actions.

Jenn: 00:21:28

Chancellorsville is going to be a confederate victory, but this is where

Scott: 00:21:39

Sergeant John Blake stood among the weary victors at Chancellorsville.

Scott: 00:21:44

The victory felt hollow.

Scott: 00:21:46

Whispers of a friendly fire incident involving Stonewall Jackson

Scott: 00:21:49

had turned into a grim reality.

Scott: 00:21:51

Jackson, the man who had inspired John at Bull Run and bolstered his

Scott: 00:21:55

spirit at Antietam, lay wounded.

Scott: 00:21:58

The camp was shrouded in a heavy silence.

Scott: 00:22:00

A stark contrast to the usual celebratory cheers that followed a victory.

Scott: 00:22:06

Days bled into each other, filled with a tense anticipation that gnawed at John.

Scott: 00:22:10

He, along with many others, found himself drawn towards the makeshift hospital.

Scott: 00:22:14

A constant vigil kept for any news.

Scott: 00:22:17

Rumors swirled, some hopeful, others grim.

Scott: 00:22:21

John remembered the unwavering figure of Jackson at Antietam,

Scott: 00:22:24

his voice a beacon in the storm.

Scott: 00:22:27

Now that beacon flickered weakly.

Scott: 00:22:31

One day, the news arrived.

Scott: 00:22:33

Carried on the hushed tones of a medical officer, amputation.

Scott: 00:22:38

John's gut clenched.

Scott: 00:22:39

Snowmobile Jackson, the man seemingly impervious to bullets, had lost an arm.

Scott: 00:22:44

It felt like a betrayal of their collective.

Scott: 00:22:45

To faith, a symbol of their own vulnerability.

Scott: 00:22:49

John pictured Jackson, the man who embodied Confederate resilience, and

Scott: 00:22:52

wondered how he would weather this storm.

Scott: 00:22:55

Days later, another blow.

Scott: 00:22:57

Pneumonia.

Scott: 00:22:58

John felt a cold dread settle in his stomach.

Scott: 00:23:01

The whispers grew louder, filled with a morbid certainty.

Scott: 00:23:04

Finally, the news came crashing down.

Scott: 00:23:06

Stonewall Jackson was dead.

Scott: 00:23:09

John stood numb, the cheers of victory from just a week ago

Scott: 00:23:12

echoing hollowly in his memory.

Scott: 00:23:16

The camp was plunged into a deep morning.

Scott: 00:23:18

John watched as the once vibrant general was laid to rest.

Scott: 00:23:22

A sense of emptiness gnawing at him.

Scott: 00:23:24

He had lost more than a leader, he had lost a symbol.

Scott: 00:23:27

A man who embodied the spirit of the Confederacy.

Scott: 00:23:30

As the army prepared to move on, John found himself

Scott: 00:23:33

lingering by Jackson's grave.

Scott: 00:23:36

He looked at the fresh mound of earth.

Scott: 00:23:38

A stark reminder of their shared mortality.

Scott: 00:23:41

Stonewall Jackson was gone but his legacy remained, a legacy etched not just in

Scott: 00:23:45

victories but in his unwavering spirit.

Scott: 00:23:48

John straightened his shoulders, a newfound resolve hardening in his eyes.

Scott: 00:23:52

They would fight on for Jackson, and for themselves, but a question

Scott: 00:23:56

lingered in the back of his mind.

Scott: 00:23:58

Could the Confederacy, without its Stonewall, stand against the

Scott: 00:24:02

relentless tide of the Union?

Jenn: 00:24:08

Samuel Jackson is going to be injured and injured

Jenn: 00:24:11

to the point of amputation.

Scott: 00:24:13

Right.

Scott: 00:24:14

So he's kind of basically, like, kind of walking his lines.

Scott: 00:24:18

With, with some men.

Scott: 00:24:20

And I think some of the, there's a unit from North Carolina.

Jenn: 00:24:24

Yes.

Jenn: 00:24:24

So it's May 2nd, 1863.

Jenn: 00:24:27

He's, he's kind of like you said, he's going between these

Jenn: 00:24:31

lines, checking the night, right?

Jenn: 00:24:33

Making sure people kind of like bedded down for the night, but

Scott: 00:24:35

on his troops.

Jenn: 00:24:36

where the lines are.

Jenn: 00:24:37

And they, yes, I think it was a group from North Carolina who think that

Jenn: 00:24:41

their union And fire upon them and they have to yell at them to stop.

Jenn: 00:24:45

And I want to stress that men died.

Jenn: 00:24:48

It wasn't just Stonewall Jackson got hit in the arm, that a couple men died.

Jenn: 00:24:52

I tried to find their names.

Jenn: 00:24:53

I wanted to know more about those men who died.

Jenn: 00:24:55

It's hard to figure out even those men.

Jenn: 00:24:57

If you listen to this and you're like, I know those men who were killed,

Jenn: 00:25:01

write it and let us know because I really have tried to look that up

Jenn: 00:25:04

and find the men who were killed.

Jenn: 00:25:06

Because I think it would even be an urban legend to be like, I, my family member

Jenn: 00:25:12

was one of the members who were killed when Stonewall Jackson's arm was hit.

Jenn: 00:25:17

So his arm was hit in three

Scott: 00:25:20

It says left

Jenn: 00:25:20

His left arm, halfway between the elbow and the shoulder, his

Jenn: 00:25:24

wrist and the palm of his right hand.

Jenn: 00:25:26

So we actually got the right hand was hit too.

Jenn: 00:25:28

And it basically shattered.

Jenn: 00:25:31

Between that halfway point between the elbow and the

Jenn: 00:25:33

shoulder, it shattered the bone.

Jenn: 00:25:36

And so Hunter McGuire, who we visited his grave, Dr.

Jenn: 00:25:40

Hunter McGuire is the one who amputates his arm on the battlefield there.

Jenn: 00:25:45

Now, as they are carrying him with the stretcher, they drop

Scott: 00:25:51

That's right.

Scott: 00:25:51

You talked about that

Jenn: 00:25:52

and it's a very high drop and he can't brace himself because one arm

Jenn: 00:25:57

shattered, the other arm's been shot and they say his chest hit some rocks.

Jenn: 00:26:03

be important because he's going to develop pneumonia and his lungs are injured.

Jenn: 00:26:08

And usually that is, that's the most telltale sign of pneumonia.

Jenn: 00:26:14

If your lungs are so injured that they can't take a full breath.

Jenn: 00:26:17

And so they sit with the virus in them.

Jenn: 00:26:21

That's how pneumonia can be fatal.

Jenn: 00:26:25

And so, because you might ask, well, how does he die from arm amputation?

Jenn: 00:26:29

So many people have limbs amputated during the Civil War and they don't

Scott: 00:26:33

That, that was part of it.

Jenn: 00:26:34

That was, it was the pneumonia that actually kills him.

Jenn: 00:26:37

He's weakened by

Scott: 00:26:38

Yeah, because if I remember right, because we've made videos before.

Scott: 00:26:41

We've made probably two or three videos about Stonewall Jackson.

Scott: 00:26:44

Where his arm was and where he died and

Jenn: 00:26:47

Yeah, we take you to where he was shot, to where the arm was

Jenn: 00:26:50

amputated, to where the arm is buried, L word, and then to where he's buried.

Jenn: 00:26:56

We also take you to where Hunter McGuire is buried, the.

Jenn: 00:26:59

doctor who performs the amputation.

Jenn: 00:27:02

So he's he shot on May 2nd, like late at night, his arm is amputated like the

Jenn: 00:27:08

early morning hours of May 3rd, 1863.

Jenn: 00:27:11

So he's been fighting for two years, almost two years.

Jenn: 00:27:14

He gets the name Stonewall in July of 1861.

Jenn: 00:27:18

It's almost two years later that he's, you know, this is South is really, pushing,

Jenn: 00:27:25

and I would say winning at this point.

Jenn: 00:27:28

And his, uh, it happens quickly.

Jenn: 00:27:31

May 2nd, he's shot.

Jenn: 00:27:32

May 3rd, it's amputated.

Jenn: 00:27:35

A chaplain will come and once he's given last rights to people and he sees

Jenn: 00:27:41

that Stonewall Jackson's arm has been amputated and asks, where is his arm?

Jenn: 00:27:45

And they say it's out in the pile.

Jenn: 00:27:47

He's able to decipher which one is his.

Jenn: 00:27:49

He takes the arm back to his brother's farm, which is not

Jenn: 00:27:53

far from where it's amputated.

Jenn: 00:27:54

And

Scott: 00:27:54

I think it's like a mile or two.

Jenn: 00:27:55

see our video, it's his plantation, Elwood, they have names

Jenn: 00:28:00

and he buries the arm in their family cemetery and the arm will stay there.

Jenn: 00:28:06

And what's interesting is that house actually becomes a headquarters for Grant

Jenn: 00:28:12

during one another civil war battle.

Jenn: 00:28:14

And little do they know that Stonewall Jackson's arm is in the graveyard.

Scott: 00:28:19

30 yards

Jenn: 00:28:20

30 yards away.

Jenn: 00:28:21

Like, I just found that so fascinating, but that's beside the point.

Jenn: 00:28:24

So eight days later, he's going to die of pneumonia and we've gone to that

Jenn: 00:28:28

places where it's called Giddy Station and it's right off the interstate.

Jenn: 00:28:32

They have signs says Stonewall Jackson death site.

Jenn: 00:28:35

It's the Chandler home.

Jenn: 00:28:38

Also another plantation off a railroad track.

Jenn: 00:28:40

There was like a back house office space and that's where

Jenn: 00:28:45

Stonewall Jackson is buried.

Jenn: 00:28:48

put a nurse, Hunter McGuire, still with him.

Jenn: 00:28:51

He'll pass on May 10th, 1863.

Jenn: 00:28:54

And he gets, his wife is able to get there.

Jenn: 00:28:57

His second wife is able to get there before he passes.

Jenn: 00:29:00

He's delirious.

Scott: 00:29:02

giving orders.

Jenn: 00:29:03

orders to A.

Jenn: 00:29:03

P.

Jenn: 00:29:04

Hill.

Jenn: 00:29:04

And then he like gets a peaceful look on his face and says, let's go rest amongst

Jenn: 00:29:10

the trees and let's go across the, like the brook and rest amongst the trees.

Jenn: 00:29:15

Like those are his final words.

Jenn: 00:29:16

And then he.

Jenn: 00:29:17

Passes.

Jenn: 00:29:19

And then his body is taken to Richmond, Virginia to lay in state.

Jenn: 00:29:22

It's capital of the South.

Jenn: 00:29:23

And then he's further taken on to Lexington to be buried.

Jenn: 00:29:26

His wife never wants to disturb the arm.

Jenn: 00:29:30

She felt because it was given a Christian burial that the arm should stay.

Jenn: 00:29:35

The arm has gotten a legend of its own.

Jenn: 00:29:37

So if you want to see our arm video, it's,

Scott: 00:29:41

I'll I'll link that in the show

Jenn: 00:29:42

it's had some history through the years.

Scott: 00:29:44

yeah.

Scott: 00:29:45

Marines have allegedly buried, unburied, dug it up and stuff like that.

Jenn: 00:29:49

people have guarded it.

Scott: 00:29:51

crazy.

Jenn: 00:29:51

But there is a stone there.

Jenn: 00:29:53

So that's kind of neat to

Scott: 00:29:54

But we actually visited, so our video for this was actually because we

Scott: 00:29:58

visited his true grave site in Lexington.

Jenn: 00:30:00

So in Lexington, Virginia, again, there was a This is where VMI is.

Jenn: 00:30:04

This is where Stonewall Jackson's house is.

Jenn: 00:30:06

I want to also stress Stonewall Jackson wasn't enslaver.

Jenn: 00:30:09

He had six slaves who worked in his home.

Jenn: 00:30:12

But again, his story gets complicated because it's actually run today

Jenn: 00:30:18

by an African American woman.

Jenn: 00:30:21

And Stonewall Jackson was known more to the African American people in

Jenn: 00:30:26

Lexington than they said he was even known to the white people in Lexington.

Jenn: 00:30:30

Because he was so adamant on teaching Sunday school and the black church and

Jenn: 00:30:35

he, the six people who lived in his home, people asked to be bought by him,

Jenn: 00:30:41

African American slaves, because he would let you work towards your freedom.

Scott: 00:30:45

Oh, interesting.

Jenn: 00:30:46

if you work for him, you could earn your freedom.

Jenn: 00:30:50

He was, he was big into that.

Scott: 00:30:52

So, and, and that's, I love that you bring this up because again, we always

Scott: 00:30:56

talk about context, but this is the, the shades of gray that is history, right?

Scott: 00:31:04

People like this, they have a reputation in the easiest thing for the human brain

Scott: 00:31:09

to do is to categorize a group of people into whatever sort of category, right?

Scott: 00:31:16

Hey, the South, the Confederacy, they were fighting for to keep slavery.

Scott: 00:31:21

It's a lot more nuanced, and there's many shades of gray, and so many so that

Scott: 00:31:28

different states had different takes on that, different cities within those

Scott: 00:31:31

states had different takes, different people within those cities and states

Scott: 00:31:35

had different takes on that, and this is a good example of someone like Stonewall

Scott: 00:31:40

Jackson who's such a, an iconic figure when you start talking about the South,

Scott: 00:31:44

the Civil War, and the Confederacy, There's a lot of shades of gray, and

Scott: 00:31:48

I bet a lot of people probably don't, didn't know that that was his approach to,

Scott: 00:31:52

those he had enslaved, was he was letting them work towards freedom, educating,

Scott: 00:31:56

teaching Sunday school, stuff like that.

Jenn: 00:31:58

It's one of those things that it's, it's still, it's still enslavement.

Jenn: 00:32:02

There's nothing, there's no breaking that, but the different levels.

Jenn: 00:32:06

of abuse, mentally and physically, where Stonewall Jackson is at.

Jenn: 00:32:11

It just, to me, it's surprising.

Jenn: 00:32:13

And it's just something, it's the truth of history, which is

Jenn: 00:32:17

the most important thing to us.

Jenn: 00:32:18

And we want you to know the truth.

Jenn: 00:32:20

And again, you decide how you feel about that.

Jenn: 00:32:23

But that's the truth of how he, uh, what he did.

Jenn: 00:32:26

Was connected to slavery and that story is told at the Stonewall Jackson house

Jenn: 00:32:32

it'll tell the story of those six people who lived there and What their lives were

Jenn: 00:32:36

like so he's brought back to at the time Presbyterian Cemetery and it was named

Jenn: 00:32:44

that when it first opened and was built.

Jenn: 00:32:49

It's in, it's 314 South Main Street in Lexington, Virginia.

Jenn: 00:32:54

And a group of Presbyterian church was there.

Jenn: 00:32:57

And so that was their cemetery.

Jenn: 00:32:58

So Presbyterian cemetery, that's where his first wife is buried.

Jenn: 00:33:01

She dies in childbirth with their son, and she's buried, holding their son.

Jenn: 00:33:05

So he's been buried there.

Jenn: 00:33:08

And it's not until about 30 years later, that Edmund Ballantyne, Edward B.

Jenn: 00:33:15

Ballantyne, so.

Jenn: 00:33:16

double B, right, Edward V.

Jenn: 00:33:17

Valentine, who also sculpts the Robert E.

Jenn: 00:33:21

Lee sculpture that's over his grave, sculpts the statue of Stonewall Jackson,

Scott: 00:33:27

that's the one that's in the cemetery

Jenn: 00:33:28

the one in the cemetery.

Jenn: 00:33:30

And when that sculpture is made, which again, it was 1895.

Jenn: 00:33:35

So, About 30 years after his death, 32 years, his body is moved.

Jenn: 00:33:40

So when you see our video and I'm showing you, this is the original

Jenn: 00:33:43

grave of Stonewall Jackson.

Jenn: 00:33:44

He's now at this other location.

Jenn: 00:33:47

When you walk into what is today Oak Grove Cemetery, there's a

Jenn: 00:33:52

path straight to his statue.

Jenn: 00:33:54

It's like the center and it's a circle.

Jenn: 00:33:57

So you kind of walk in a circle around the statue and.

Jenn: 00:34:00

His body was moved in 1895 underneath that statue, but it's

Jenn: 00:34:05

not just him who's buried there.

Jenn: 00:34:07

It's his first wife with a stillborn child.

Jenn: 00:34:09

She was moved.

Jenn: 00:34:10

Then his second wife, she was moved because she had died

Jenn: 00:34:15

before the statue was made.

Jenn: 00:34:17

And then his second wife, infant daughter.

Jenn: 00:34:19

He has two daughters by her.

Jenn: 00:34:21

One dies as an infant.

Jenn: 00:34:22

She's buried there.

Jenn: 00:34:23

Then his older daughter, she dies in her twenties, but she's able to have,

Jenn: 00:34:27

she gets married and has children.

Jenn: 00:34:29

So she's buried there with her husband, which I always think is funny.

Jenn: 00:34:32

The poor dude, uh, William Edmund Christian, like people

Scott: 00:34:36

in the

Jenn: 00:34:36

forever in the

Scott: 00:34:37

Stonewall Jackson.

Jenn: 00:34:38

don't know me at all.

Jenn: 00:34:39

He's buried there.

Jenn: 00:34:40

And then their second son, who is Thomas Jackson Christian.

Jenn: 00:34:46

is buried there.

Jenn: 00:34:47

And then there's a little like cenotaph, which is basically like a memorial,

Jenn: 00:34:52

a memorial marker to remind you of someone or in memory of someone.

Jenn: 00:34:56

His son, who fought in World War II, who they believe is buried somewhere

Jenn: 00:35:01

in France, or died somewhere in France.

Jenn: 00:35:03

There's a cenotaph to him there.

Jenn: 00:35:05

So his entire family plot has been moved there.

Jenn: 00:35:10

But the original graves of the first wife, the original graves of Stonewall

Jenn: 00:35:14

Jackson and his infant daughter who who died young and his second wife.

Jenn: 00:35:19

Those original graves are still there.

Jenn: 00:35:21

So I show you those and then I'll show you the plot as it is today.

Jenn: 00:35:27

Now, they're gonna change the name to Stonewall Jackson

Jenn: 00:35:31

Memorial Cemetery in 1949.

Jenn: 00:35:33

So that's almost 60 years after or 55 years after the statues put up.

Jenn: 00:35:40

I think because the statue, if you walk there, is the centerpiece of the cemetery.

Scott: 00:35:44

is.

Scott: 00:35:44

And it's a draw.

Scott: 00:35:45

It's a public draw.

Jenn: 00:35:45

a public draw.

Jenn: 00:35:46

But then in 2020, they've changed it to Oak Grove.

Jenn: 00:35:50

And they said because the original Presbyterian church would meet under an

Jenn: 00:35:55

oak there before they built the church.

Jenn: 00:35:57

So it's gone through three name changes now.

Jenn: 00:36:00

But it's Oak Grove Cemetery today in Lexington.

Jenn: 00:36:03

And when we were there, there were a bunch of lemons

Scott: 00:36:07

yeah, that was, that was interesting

Jenn: 00:36:08

of his grave.

Jenn: 00:36:10

And there's like, again, urban legends that Stonewall Jackson

Jenn: 00:36:13

always would be sucking on lemons.

Jenn: 00:36:15

He loved the taste of them.

Jenn: 00:36:17

He considered it a luxury.

Jenn: 00:36:18

He did it for health, for scurvy.

Jenn: 00:36:21

Uh, But historians have uncovered that he didn't like lemons

Jenn: 00:36:24

any more than any other fruit.

Jenn: 00:36:26

And it was just one of those things, if you could get fruit during a battle, you

Jenn: 00:36:31

would eat any fresh fruit you could get.

Jenn: 00:36:34

And so sometimes people would see him with lemons, but they saw him with

Jenn: 00:36:37

oranges and cherries, and it would just happen to whatever fruit he could have.

Jenn: 00:36:41

So it wasn't like he liked lemons anymore, but it became an urban legend.

Scott: 00:36:46

And you see lemon, they were, there were actually lemons.

Scott: 00:36:47

That is

Jenn: 00:36:48

It was actually Lemon's Head is Grave, and I had people ask me

Jenn: 00:36:50

about the Lemon's Head is Grave.

Jenn: 00:36:52

I, and I, I joke about it in the video, and I will say the

Jenn: 00:36:56

obvious, the statue does have two

Scott: 00:36:58

That's right That's right.

Scott: 00:37:00

You do.

Scott: 00:37:00

You do.

Scott: 00:37:01

You do say that.

Scott: 00:37:02

And we actually got some comments on that.

Scott: 00:37:03

So it is a beautiful cemetery and there are actually some interesting.

Scott: 00:37:07

graves that were there.

Scott: 00:37:09

And if you're curious about some of those other kind of notable

Scott: 00:37:11

graves that were there, I encourage you to go watch our video.

Scott: 00:37:13

And again, I'll link it in the show notes.

Scott: 00:37:15

Or you can find it, I think, potentially at, at our website, talkwithhistory.

Scott: 00:37:19

com for this episode.

Scott: 00:37:20

So it was neat to go there cause Lexington is very, kind of

Scott: 00:37:24

really feels like old Virginia.

Scott: 00:37:26

There's so much that's there, right?

Scott: 00:37:27

VMI is there and, and all this stuff.

Scott: 00:37:30

And it was just, you Neat because it's not it's not one of the more

Scott: 00:37:35

touristy parts of Virginia Because it's not on the coast, right?

Scott: 00:37:39

So it's it's a few hours inland.

Scott: 00:37:42

It was just a beautiful city We kind of enjoyed ourselves there.

Scott: 00:37:45

I think we were at that we were without the kids for this

Scott: 00:37:47

trip So it was a ton of fun

Jenn: 00:37:49

I do want to say Lee's last words.

Jenn: 00:37:52

When Lee first found out that Stonewall Jackson's arm had been

Jenn: 00:37:56

amputated, he sent a message saying, give General Jackson my affectionate

Jenn: 00:38:00

regards, say to him, he's lost his left arm, but I have lost my right.

Jenn: 00:38:05

When he learns of Jackson's death, he said, I have lost my right arm

Jenn: 00:38:10

and I'm bleeding at the heart.

Scott: 00:38:12

interesting

Jenn: 00:38:13

And that will be.

Jenn: 00:38:15

The result of this death is Lee will never find another general who can

Jenn: 00:38:20

meet that demand like Jackson could.

Jenn: 00:38:24

He there really put to the test at Gettysburg, which will be about

Jenn: 00:38:28

two months later after this death.

Jenn: 00:38:31

And we've talked about this before the, the South was doing so well.

Jenn: 00:38:35

They're advancing so far into the North.

Jenn: 00:38:38

They're stopped at Gettysburg.

Jenn: 00:38:40

People always wonder what would have been like if Lee had Jackson there, because

Jenn: 00:38:46

his generals just can't hold the line and they just folly right and left.

Jenn: 00:38:51

And it's a, it's a.

Jenn: 00:38:52

Total Union victory and the South will retreat and continue to retreat

Jenn: 00:38:57

for the last two years of the war.

Jenn: 00:38:59

So this is this is it when you think of the switch of the North of the South's

Jenn: 00:39:06

momentum This is the moment and this is why we talk about Jackson This is why

Jenn: 00:39:10

we want to know the truth about Jackson.

Jenn: 00:39:12

And this is why we covered him on Walk with History.

Scott: 00:39:14

Anybody who studies any sort of military history knows

Scott: 00:39:17

that that leadership really does matter It really does matter.

Scott: 00:39:25

Thank you for listening to the Talk With History podcast and please reach out

Scott: 00:39:28

to us at our website, talkwithhistory.

Scott: 00:39:30

com.

Scott: 00:39:30

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Scott: 00:39:33

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Scott: 00:39:34

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Scott: 00:39:38

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Scott: 00:39:43

Shoot them a text, tell them to look us up.

Scott: 00:39:45

We rely on you, our community to grow, and we appreciate you all every day.

Scott: 00:39:49

We'll talk to you next time.

Jenn: 00:39:50

Thank you